bear66
Well-known member
South Korea started preparing on 2 January, 3 days after the news of a novel coronavirus appeared and long before their first case. When they got their first case, they were ready.
When did Boris become the messiah
- Thread starter asredastheycome
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HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Exactly, the lack of planning from this self congratulating complacent Tory Party has been absolutely criminal. Look at the lack of basic PPE, no excuses are there?
Funky_Chicken
Well-known member
Laughing
Well-known member
It beggars belief that some people still consider the governments response to the pandemic as adequate. Let's be clear, it is shambolic at best and criminal at worst. Johnson and his party have cost human lives that could have been saved. That is not opinion it is fact. We are trending worse than any country in the world apart from the USA. That is a fact, we are worse than every other country in the world except the USA.
Asking frontline medical professionals to care for infected patience with no PPE, yes that is right no PPE is criminal. Forget the soundbites about the health heroes, our government don't care about doctors and nurses.
Not preparing to test and trace, criminal.
Allowing hordes of Spanish supporters get off a plane when they embarked from a virus ridden city was criminal.
Failing to do even a temperature test for everyone getting of a plane that originated outside our borders is foolhardy, careless or just plain dumb.
Allowing Cheltenham to go ahead was criminal.
Not locking down sooner was plain old stupid. In our household we hunkererd down 10 days before the government advised it, I saw it coming, as did other folks. We prepared and we had no expert advice, we are just not stupi, reckless and care about money more than our health.
Giving notice of the pub closures early that day, ridiculous, the pubs were going to be mobbed as everyone had a party.
There is not a single metric that suggests Johnson or his idiotic advisers got anything right.
Asking frontline medical professionals to care for infected patience with no PPE, yes that is right no PPE is criminal. Forget the soundbites about the health heroes, our government don't care about doctors and nurses.
Not preparing to test and trace, criminal.
Allowing hordes of Spanish supporters get off a plane when they embarked from a virus ridden city was criminal.
Failing to do even a temperature test for everyone getting of a plane that originated outside our borders is foolhardy, careless or just plain dumb.
Allowing Cheltenham to go ahead was criminal.
Not locking down sooner was plain old stupid. In our household we hunkererd down 10 days before the government advised it, I saw it coming, as did other folks. We prepared and we had no expert advice, we are just not stupi, reckless and care about money more than our health.
Giving notice of the pub closures early that day, ridiculous, the pubs were going to be mobbed as everyone had a party.
There is not a single metric that suggests Johnson or his idiotic advisers got anything right.
Re the original point about Boris being deified: After 5 years of the media insisting anyone who supported Corbyn's Labour policies was a "cultist" it is quite galling to see the sort of language tory MPs and supporters use about Boris.
Re the posts saying Labour couldn't have done better than the tories: I think deep down everyone knows this is incorrect.
Firstly Corbyns just a more serious person than Boris is. You can hardly have the PM making stupid "last gasp", "squash the sombrero" jokes, saying he's shaking hands with everybody, and his Dad saying he'll still go to the pub ans then turn around and blame the public for not implementing their own lockdown. Realistically can anyone imagine Corbyn ever making jokes during a coronavirus briefing? I doubt it.
Secondly their priorities are different. If Corbyn had won the election and had been in charge he'd have prioritised people's health over the economy to a further degree than the tories have. That's just inherent in the ideology behind the two parties.
Then thirdly there's the actual policy differences. We already know the Labour party would increase spending on the NHS, and have been looking at UBI. They also wouldn't have had the staunch Brexit related impetus to refuse EU help.
Hey ho, we've got the government we've got.
Re the posts saying Labour couldn't have done better than the tories: I think deep down everyone knows this is incorrect.
Firstly Corbyns just a more serious person than Boris is. You can hardly have the PM making stupid "last gasp", "squash the sombrero" jokes, saying he's shaking hands with everybody, and his Dad saying he'll still go to the pub ans then turn around and blame the public for not implementing their own lockdown. Realistically can anyone imagine Corbyn ever making jokes during a coronavirus briefing? I doubt it.
Secondly their priorities are different. If Corbyn had won the election and had been in charge he'd have prioritised people's health over the economy to a further degree than the tories have. That's just inherent in the ideology behind the two parties.
Then thirdly there's the actual policy differences. We already know the Labour party would increase spending on the NHS, and have been looking at UBI. They also wouldn't have had the staunch Brexit related impetus to refuse EU help.
Hey ho, we've got the government we've got.
Funky_Chicken
Well-known member
Funny how things are so black and white: "There is not a single metric that suggests Johnson or his idiotic advisors got anything right."
500 bed hospital built in a week, before needed, with heaps more going up around the country.
Haven't run out of ventilators yet.
200+ countries have been impacted by COVID-19.
If you're comparing the UK with the US, Spain and Italy and patting Johnson on the back because it's not as bad here, then you're making the wrong comparison.
But comparing the UK with South Korea is also the wrong comparison. South Korea were ready because they'd been hit hard by SARS last time around and culturally they were able to take strong measures immediately without creating public outrage. Even with that they still had major outbreaks because of stupid people.
There are a few countries who've managed it very well through immediate draconian measures which the UK would never have accepted. And there are very very few countries who've managed it well without draconian measures.
As an Aussie, I think here in Australia we did it well. Gradually increasing lock down measures, sometimes on a daily basis. Doesn't stop people being idiots though. Seven US tourists went to one of the wine regions when they should have been self isolating, and infected 10 locals, one of whom has since died. The Barossa Valley is now in complete lock down to try and eradicate it there, with police on all the roads in and out.
A bit rough though to compare the UK to Australia, because we have a population of only 25 million spread across a country the size of Europe and only about six major cities.
500 bed hospital built in a week, before needed, with heaps more going up around the country.
Haven't run out of ventilators yet.
200+ countries have been impacted by COVID-19.
If you're comparing the UK with the US, Spain and Italy and patting Johnson on the back because it's not as bad here, then you're making the wrong comparison.
But comparing the UK with South Korea is also the wrong comparison. South Korea were ready because they'd been hit hard by SARS last time around and culturally they were able to take strong measures immediately without creating public outrage. Even with that they still had major outbreaks because of stupid people.
There are a few countries who've managed it very well through immediate draconian measures which the UK would never have accepted. And there are very very few countries who've managed it well without draconian measures.
As an Aussie, I think here in Australia we did it well. Gradually increasing lock down measures, sometimes on a daily basis. Doesn't stop people being idiots though. Seven US tourists went to one of the wine regions when they should have been self isolating, and infected 10 locals, one of whom has since died. The Barossa Valley is now in complete lock down to try and eradicate it there, with police on all the roads in and out.
A bit rough though to compare the UK to Australia, because we have a population of only 25 million spread across a country the size of Europe and only about six major cities.
Laughing
Well-known member
Otto comparisons with other countries handling is all we have to compare,it's as close as like for like that you can get. If you don't like S Korea what about Germany? In fact what about any other country, pick any you like and we are trending worse than them.
We haven't run out of ventilators YET.
We built a 500 bed hospital - no we didn't, we put beds and oxygen lines in the excel. Not the same thing. Do we have the staff to run this facility? Do we have any ventilators in the facility? what about PPE for the staff that are to work there? Not withstanding the systematic stripping of the NHS of resources and funding to line tory pockets.
As painful as this is to say, if we continue on our current trajectory we will loose more lives per million capita than any other nation. And Otto that is the only metric that matters.
We haven't run out of ventilators YET.
We built a 500 bed hospital - no we didn't, we put beds and oxygen lines in the excel. Not the same thing. Do we have the staff to run this facility? Do we have any ventilators in the facility? what about PPE for the staff that are to work there? Not withstanding the systematic stripping of the NHS of resources and funding to line tory pockets.
As painful as this is to say, if we continue on our current trajectory we will loose more lives per million capita than any other nation. And Otto that is the only metric that matters.
SmallTown
Well-known member
If you look at deaths per head of population we are one of the worst countries in the world. Given we were behind the curve and saw other countries over the world dealing with this for weeks before it hit us bad, it IS criminal the lack of response from the government.
Pre-Pandemic as well lest we forget that this is the government whose "austerity" measures have collapsed and crippled all the public services that should be keeping the country safe and alive right now.
Pre-Pandemic as well lest we forget that this is the government whose "austerity" measures have collapsed and crippled all the public services that should be keeping the country safe and alive right now.
3 days earlier would have halved the total infection number (no matter what it was, even if it wasn't fully known), and would have halved the total deaths for that outbreak.
Why would that have been too soon? Too soon for what? What is the problem doing it earlier, seeing as you come out of the other side earlier.
It didn't come out of nowhere for us, we had 6 weeks notice from China, 3 weeks more notice than Japan and South Korea. It came out of nowhere for China, and also Japan and South Korea to an extent etc, and they have all handled it quicker and much better. They advised us what to do, and we ignored it. Japan and Korea have had only 200 and 100 deaths, in total and we've had twice as many deaths as China.
Italy had two weeks less notice, less money and an older population and we're going to do worse than them (and they handled it badly, as they admit). It's a clusterfcuk.
Are they?
To me those that are complaining about those ignoring it, are the sensible people. They are saying we're not being harsh enough on those ignoring it. That's certainly what I'm saying.
The ones that are flouting the lockdown are the idiots and the selfish. They're the ones claiming we're being too harsh, smashing up ambulances, spitting and coughing on people etc.
The people criticising the Tories wanted the lock down earlier! They wanted to follow the Tory advice, before it even became the Tory advice, as they wanted the UK to listen to the EXPERTS (WHO, China, Japan and South Korea).
Do you know more than the experts? Or the "know-it-alls" repeating what the experts are saying?
Yes there is, test, lockdown and trace, you know, like how the WHO, China, Japan and South Korea advised (the experts/ know-it-alls).
Most of that number couldn't have got the disease if they tried to, as they simply would not have come into contact with it. But the number that did have it before lock-down was doubling every three days. So a week earlier would have been 25% of the infections and would have also meant less than 25% of the deaths, as each patient that was infected could have got more care. Two weeks earlier and it's near 6%. We had two more weeks notice than Italy and Spain.
It's obvious from your post, that you're a "know-fcuck-all"
You can only blame the Government so much here whilst still remaining logically consistent. The idea that Boris was the brains behind the Government response is laughable, the countries Pandemic response protocols have been in place for over 15 years and were followed down to a tee with guidance from Patrick Vallance. If you have serious issue with our response then you should have serious issues with the countries medical experts who guided the Government through every step, particularly early on. If you believe a different Government would have acted differently in terms of strategy, you're effectively saying that politicians would have went directly against expert opinion in a field which they are grossly unqualified. I'm pretty surr before this happened, you'd have asked that the Government follow the experts and not make decisions off their own back. I have a lot of issues with the way we responded to this early on, but it doesn't make sense to blame Boris Johnson for that.
My main issues with Boris and co were communication and the speed I'm which they rolled out financial support, which by the way, has now went further than most European countries. It's those European countries that should remain the basis of comparison for the virus, not South Korea because it suits your argument more. The virus hasn't had a consistent and fair distribution and has thus effected counties differently and at different rates. The initial talk early on was that Germany were doing so much better because of more testing and a better funded healthcare system, when in reality, it was mainly due to them having clear visibility over their patient zeros and getting lucky with the initial spread. Important information like this is missed when you are entirely focused on blaming Politics and point scoring.
I have a lot of issues with how Johnson has dealt with this personally, I thought his dialogue early on was moronic and there's no doubt that years and years of criminal underfunding in the healthcare system has made this pandemic a lot more difficult to deal with. In terms of the strategic response though, you've got to be consistent, either they should have followed the advice of the experts or they shouldnt have. If you are in the latter, then it makes little sense putting that solely at the feet of the Government. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for their decisions over equipment and further funding but it should always be put into context.
My main issues with Boris and co were communication and the speed I'm which they rolled out financial support, which by the way, has now went further than most European countries. It's those European countries that should remain the basis of comparison for the virus, not South Korea because it suits your argument more. The virus hasn't had a consistent and fair distribution and has thus effected counties differently and at different rates. The initial talk early on was that Germany were doing so much better because of more testing and a better funded healthcare system, when in reality, it was mainly due to them having clear visibility over their patient zeros and getting lucky with the initial spread. Important information like this is missed when you are entirely focused on blaming Politics and point scoring.
I have a lot of issues with how Johnson has dealt with this personally, I thought his dialogue early on was moronic and there's no doubt that years and years of criminal underfunding in the healthcare system has made this pandemic a lot more difficult to deal with. In terms of the strategic response though, you've got to be consistent, either they should have followed the advice of the experts or they shouldnt have. If you are in the latter, then it makes little sense putting that solely at the feet of the Government. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for their decisions over equipment and further funding but it should always be put into context.
bear66
Well-known member
Not sure if I heard it correctly but the scientific bod at the press conference yesterday attempted to give a timeline of events. He said, I think, most of February and half of March were spent modeling to decide which lockdown measures should be taken. I can't believe some preemptive judgement wasn't possible. Just a week before the lockdown the deputy CMO was disputing that large outdoor gatherings would have an effect on transmission. (As did the ex-Scottish CMO). That with a Testing system designed not to be sufficient makes you wonder about "the best scientists in the World" comments.
All of the modelling when common sense was all that was needed.
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bear66
Well-known member
I have serious reservations about the officials. The CMO almost broke ranks on Monday, but the government officials quickly reinterpreted what he said to the government line.
I'm not quoting all your post as it's too long and I've wrote enough, but do you not remember "herd immunity"?
Our medical experts were clearly not experts when pushing this "herd immunity"? Is Cummings an expert? Every other expert from WHO and other nations that were ahead of us were saying "Test, Test, Test". An expert does not ignore advice from those that know more than they do, and were ahead of us. If we picked and listened to those experts then thats also the fault of the guy that's picking them.
This "no test is better than a bad test" line is absolute balls. Most get a temperature, so just by checking everyone's temperature before going onto public transport, into an office, into a busy area would have worked wonders (like it did in asia). We could have tracked peoples movements with a QR code that did not need to hold anyone's personal information. Or if we wanted to go a step further could have tracked peoples phones temporarily. Yes there's possible data protection issues, but these are far trumped by the positives.
I'm not blaming Boris specifically, but he's the figurehead of his government, which is to blame and Tories have been in power long enough to make any changes that they wanted to.
We had two more weeks notice than Italy, and based on the doubles every three days idea that two weeks notice could have took our infection number down by 1/16th. Based on 1 = 2 = 4 = 8 =16 (after 12 days). Even if you took that to 9 days, roughly like what we are behind Spain, then it's 1/8th.
People mention Japan and Korea as they have a lot of interaction with China, so it's not unfair to assume that they had more people with Covid initially visit them and their measures just put a slow/ stop to it. Also Asian countries are the experts in these situations, so we should have listened to them.
A big problem that we have is that this country is just so ignorant (I say country as it's mainly an England problem), but this has been fuelled by the last 10 years of Tory rule, along with brexit and this "we don't listen to experts, nobody can tell us what to do, nobody knows what will happen" malarkey.
It's like we entered an F1 race that had already started and decided we wanted to reinvent the wheel, despite the experts telling us the wheel is actually quite good. We finally accepted the wheel was in fact the best option, but the race had finished.
Yes I 'remember' herd immunity and it remains to this day the only viable way out of this until a workable vaccine is rolled out. Every country understands this, it's not so much of a plan but an undesirable and unfortunate consequence. The Governments mistake was presenting this as a plan, which is unacceptable and ultimately a terrible PR move which is why they have distanced themselves from it. Still, the experts weren't wrong in a medical sense, that's the way out of this regardless of how many people you test. Potentially getting something wrong does not invalidate someone as an expert either, this is an unprecedented pandemic and the WHO are far from faultless in this as well, nor are they on other previous pandemics that they have completely ballsed up in the past. This does not mean they are not fit for purpose like Trump claims, it means it's very difficult to get these things right when you have so little information initially.
Why are you talking about Cummings? There's zero evidence that he had any influence at all in the Governments response to his, it's just more conspirital nonsense. I find it astonishing how quick people are to believe the press they usually despise based on comments that are completely unsubstantiated. For every source you can find that says he wanted old people to die or whatever it was, I can link you to ones that claim he was one of the sole voices pushing for more stringent lockdowns. You can go back and look at the existing pandemic protocols, they have been followed, so why would we need to believe that Cummings had any influence? They were going to be guided by those protocols regardless and have been thus far. This includes the rules on international travel, timing of the lockdowns etc
Whether you like it or not, the Government did exactly what was to be expected of them, they listened to the people employed in this country for this exact purpose. Its far too early to dictate who was right or wrong given we are finding out new information that contradicts previous held beliefs on a daily basis. Your last paragraph is nonsense I'm afraid, we did exactly what Spain, Italy and France did, we listened to our experts and enacted the pandemic response protocols we already had in place, astonishingly, Brexit doesn't come in to it.
There's a lot the Government can be blamed for here and hopefully it brings light to the chronic underfunding of the system, but you've got to be balanced and attribute blame in the right areas. The idea that Boris and Cummings were the brains behind herd immunity and lockdown measures is demonstrably untrue and dishonest.