Adi_Dem
Well-known member
All you have is personal insults. But again you’re wrong. I called their responses vacuous and idiotic. You do understand that’s not the same thing right?
UK exports to European Union drop 40% in January
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Adi_Dem
Well-known member
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Lefty
Well-known member
I have a few questions for those of you on this thread, on either side of the debate. The questions require some degree of generalisation.
1. Do you think there was a fundamentally different approach taken by Remain voters and Leave voters in arriving at their respective decisions in the referendum?
2. Do you think the different choices were due to different values, rather than a fundamentally different approach or process.
3. Do you think there is a difference in general intelligence between the two camps of voters?
4. Do you think that each side generally apply the same approach to other decisions in their life or did they approach this political question differently?
1. Do you think there was a fundamentally different approach taken by Remain voters and Leave voters in arriving at their respective decisions in the referendum?
2. Do you think the different choices were due to different values, rather than a fundamentally different approach or process.
3. Do you think there is a difference in general intelligence between the two camps of voters?
4. Do you think that each side generally apply the same approach to other decisions in their life or did they approach this political question differently?
BoroMart
Well-known member
Death rate isn't direct to vaccine, but it is a direct correlation to our governments utter incompetance.
I've seen several reports about our performances, yes, and it isn't surprising when you see how our exports are harmed. I'm sure you can find some if you so do desire.
Vaccine roll-out success, is actual more of a vaccine purchase success. The roll out has been fairly competent, which considering, is the least you would hope for. But the success, that is brexit related is the purchasing of vaccines. Like I said this was a happy accident, not a benefit that was planned for.
BoroMart
Well-known member
The following are genaralisms, but my views:
Leave was more related to feelings of being cheated by someone, and left behind, feelings of lack of hope in their current environment, it was an attitude of tearing down something that they blamed for failure (even if it wasn't necessarily the right thing to blame) not a solution to their problems.
That isn't to say everyone approaches it in this fashion, but as a generalism it appears true. As I said there is quantifiable data that shows that higher educated people and people in careers that are more intellectually challenging lean strongly to remain. I'm sure some people will find that insulting, but the facts are people educate themselves to differing levels, and education gives you the toolbox of skills required to make solid decisions. That's just life, and also why popularism doesn't work very well for the populists in the long run.
Yes, Remain went on evidence and knowledge, it as based on weighing the pros and cons of staying in. Leave was based on feelings, belief and to some a supposed desire to give the elite a bloody nose. It didn't factor in the risks of leaving for most, it ignored them as project fear.
Underlying this were a number of factors that are core value related. Remain was a less risky mindset, a more knowledge and evidence driven mindset, and more left leaning.
Leave was more related to feelings of being cheated by someone, and left behind, feelings of lack of hope in their current environment, it was an attitude of tearing down something that they blamed for failure (even if it wasn't necessarily the right thing to blame) not a solution to their problems.
There is a clear pattern of the most remain vote being where the most degree educated people live and leave being where the least educated people live. The data sets are publicly available to see this and look yourself if you choose to.
I think that in general, those with greater levels of education, and in professional careers will apply their analytical skills, and come up largely with remain...and vice versa for leave.
That isn't to say everyone approaches it in this fashion, but as a generalism it appears true. As I said there is quantifiable data that shows that higher educated people and people in careers that are more intellectually challenging lean strongly to remain. I'm sure some people will find that insulting, but the facts are people educate themselves to differing levels, and education gives you the toolbox of skills required to make solid decisions. That's just life, and also why popularism doesn't work very well for the populists in the long run.
Centralscrutinizer
Well-known member
The preemptive purchase of the vaccines happened during the transition period and while we were still trading under EU rules. We could've done it regardless of brexit.
Scrote
Well-known member
1. I can only speak from personal experience but, yes. I started out intending to vote leave. I did a lot of reading and ended up realising that the Lexit dreams would never tie up with reality. It was a fairly long process and involved looking at leave and remain positions critically. There are still some very good reasons for transforming parts of the EU.
I know plenty of people that decided to vote leave and that was it. Everything they saw that backed up their opinion was pushed but they never looked critically at the reasons for remaining. When questioned there was no room for discussion - almost a fingers-in-ears approach.
I also know some people that were always going to vote remain but when discussing reasons to leave they were always more inclined to argue through the options.
2. Not sure. I'd say initially no. I know plenty of people with similar values to me that were in all three camps (definite leave, undecided, definite remain). I also know people from the undecided group that went both ways. I think the approach/process was fundamental in those differences - although the political affiliations prior to the referendum had a large impact in many cases.
3. Yes and no. I think there's a difference in intelligence (where that is defined as ability to think critically) between those who voted leave for selfish reasons and those who voted leave for jingoistic reasons, but I don't think there's a huge gulf between leave and remain voters generally. I think it's more of an emotional intelligence that splits the two sides.
4. As above, I think the two sides come at problems in a completely different way and are almost blind to how the other side works - which is why it's so difficult to change people's minds using the same approach that works for yourself.
BoroMart
Well-known member
That is true, although if we were expecting to remain in the EU, we probably would have been made to put funds into the EU central purchasing of vaccines and not purchased our own. I guess that wouldn't have precluded us from buying our own on top of that though.
Scrote
Well-known member
This is where I think it's the emotional intelligence that actually matters more.
I've worked with some highly educated people who I wouldn't trust to file documents. I've worked with some less educated people who I'd trust with vast quantities of highly sensitive data and some pretty complicated processing. Having a degree means you can jump through hoops. Having a doctorate means you can apply some very specific skills in a very specific way (from the scientific side - I haven't worked with arts PhD's).
In my experience education correlates far less with making socially beneficial decisions than having the emotional intelligence to think empathetically. It does afford a better base for rationalising decisions, but you can make perfectly rational but terrible decisions none-the-less.
I'd actually argue that there's a big crossover in the more educated areas and the selfish skiing community that brought Covid back - they want EU membership for personal reasons not social ones.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Lefty
First the vote was very dividing you had to vote 100% for or 100% against there was no 60/40 option which has tended to polarise people after the Vote i.e you are one of us or one of them.
There were groupings on either side of differing types. (thse of course are just my observations and thoughts some people may laugh at them as I have thrown in everything)
For Remain
Internationalists look beyond the UK on a very regular basis
People who own property in the EU or are possibly looking to
People who have relatives with EU connections
People who travel alot to the EU say 2 holidays a year
People who receice revenue from the EU wither direct ot indirect
Language teachers
People who do a lot of business within the EU
People who have studied within the EU or plan to
People who work partly within the EU
Party loyalists to the Labour, Green, SNP and Liberal parties
People who feel its best to belong to a large social economic and politcial grouping that bigger is generally better
People who use trades people/cleaners from the EU and find this useful
People who have had successful careers since 1993 who feel are financially comfortably off and tend to think this will continue
People who feel EU law has benefitted them in the UK and will do so in the future.
For Leave
People who vote UKIP
People who feel left behind in financial terms and possibly with things like technology which in some cases has made them angry
People who still attach a lot to the UK and feeling British
People who have not received direct or indirect financial benefit to their knowledge from being in the EU
People who don't travel to the EU every year
People who feel the UK economy is unbalanced and change is desperately required
People who feel the country was better off in the past
People who are a bit rebellious and tend to disbelieve their betters or treat what they are told with some sceptism
People not very interested in working or studying in the EU or buying a property there or learning a foreign language
People who feel we have more in common with USA, Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc than say Bulgaria, Portugal, France and Finland.
People who feel they are in direct competition with EU workers say in the UK jobs market.
No one could pinpoint much with accuracy the overall economic consequences there were so many future variables. Even the political ones were difficult, except I think it was fair to say there was a plan to bring the EU countries closer together with one currency, one monetary policy, sometime in the future.
Some of what people think maybe be untrue, but they believe that to be true.
Although it was EU Refendum Vote it soon became clear it was a vote about much more to many people i.e a vote about the future direction of the country.
As has been shown all the large UK Metropolitan cities voted Remain - urban areas away from the large cities tended to vote Leave with a lot of rural areas.
First the vote was very dividing you had to vote 100% for or 100% against there was no 60/40 option which has tended to polarise people after the Vote i.e you are one of us or one of them.
There were groupings on either side of differing types. (thse of course are just my observations and thoughts some people may laugh at them as I have thrown in everything)
For Remain
Internationalists look beyond the UK on a very regular basis
People who own property in the EU or are possibly looking to
People who have relatives with EU connections
People who travel alot to the EU say 2 holidays a year
People who receice revenue from the EU wither direct ot indirect
Language teachers
People who do a lot of business within the EU
People who have studied within the EU or plan to
People who work partly within the EU
Party loyalists to the Labour, Green, SNP and Liberal parties
People who feel its best to belong to a large social economic and politcial grouping that bigger is generally better
People who use trades people/cleaners from the EU and find this useful
People who have had successful careers since 1993 who feel are financially comfortably off and tend to think this will continue
People who feel EU law has benefitted them in the UK and will do so in the future.
For Leave
People who vote UKIP
People who feel left behind in financial terms and possibly with things like technology which in some cases has made them angry
People who still attach a lot to the UK and feeling British
People who have not received direct or indirect financial benefit to their knowledge from being in the EU
People who don't travel to the EU every year
People who feel the UK economy is unbalanced and change is desperately required
People who feel the country was better off in the past
People who are a bit rebellious and tend to disbelieve their betters or treat what they are told with some sceptism
People not very interested in working or studying in the EU or buying a property there or learning a foreign language
People who feel we have more in common with USA, Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc than say Bulgaria, Portugal, France and Finland.
People who feel they are in direct competition with EU workers say in the UK jobs market.
No one could pinpoint much with accuracy the overall economic consequences there were so many future variables. Even the political ones were difficult, except I think it was fair to say there was a plan to bring the EU countries closer together with one currency, one monetary policy, sometime in the future.
Some of what people think maybe be untrue, but they believe that to be true.
Although it was EU Refendum Vote it soon became clear it was a vote about much more to many people i.e a vote about the future direction of the country.
As has been shown all the large UK Metropolitan cities voted Remain - urban areas away from the large cities tended to vote Leave with a lot of rural areas.
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
Again fanciful. This just isn’t true. It’s nonsense. Project Fear as it was labelled has pretty much been proven to be bang on.
How‘s it not true. We could’ve easily stayed in the sm and cu or take many different routes towards Brexit.
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
And how does that relate to the quote I’ve responded to?
BoroMart
Well-known member
I agree with this, however I would say that I've also known uneducated people with poor emotional intelligence and little empathy. In fact your angle promotes the idea that somehow high intelligence and high emotional intelligence are mutually exclusive, when the reality is the reverse is closer to the truth.
Research by leading psychologists is that emotional intelligence relates to "Better psychological well-being" and is "positively correlated with higher life satisfaction, self-esteem and lower levels of insecurity or depression".
It is an undeniable truth that poor psychological wellbeing is more prevalent in the less educated less wealthy, and working classes. I've read that you are three times as likely to have psychological issues if you are poorer.
Poorer and less educated people can have less life satisfaction, regularly have low self-esteem, and have a much higher chance of depression.
So although I agree that emotional intelligence is important in decision making, it supports the idea that more educated and career based people are more likely to have better emotional intelligence to support their better education and come to better decisions.
Also, having emotional intelligence doesn't arm someone with toolkit necessary to analyse complex factors and come up with a good decision. It doesn't arm them to identify rhetoric and PR.
Ideally we make good decisions on complex issues with both good education and good mental health, which is a large subset of the educated classes, and a small subset of the less educated.
The attitude of trying to claim that less educated people are in someway better than people who have educated themselves, is not really helpful to anyone. In fact it is a serious problem in society, snearing at those who have a thirst for knowledge is a form of lack of empathy and emotional intelligence, we all saw it as kids, the "I hate bloody swots", "nerds", "I went to the school of life" attitude which is still prevalent in many adults. It's just a sign of insecurity and poor emotional intelligence in itself.
Less educated is largely about taking the easy options. We all pretty much have access to education, that can better our lives, some people chose the easy option, possibly the lazy option, of thinking they know more than experts. That no one can teach them something worth while. Now that is their choice in life, but for those people to somehow claim they are better at making decisions than experts and educated people, is a sign of self-esteem issues. Rather than prove, they are capable of intelligence they would prefer to look for ways to undermine those who have proven they are.
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Scrote
Well-known member
I think you've misread what I've written.
If you interpret what I've written without adding the hidden "does"...
...the only reading of it would be that education and emotional intelligence are more highly related. Which definitely isn't what I'm saying and isn't the case in my experience. I think they are completley unrelated aspects of a persons make-up.
BoroMart
Well-known member
Well it's complex, however having emotional intelligence requires the precursor of having good mental health. There is a correlation between good mental health and socioeconomics, whatever you believe is irrelevant to reality.
Those that are more educated are generally more emotionally intelligent, and those that are less educated are generally less emotionally intelligent as a group.
So this statement below is egregious and illusory, it paints the idea that somehow educated people are some form of socially and emotionally inept nerds that need someone that understands the real world to help them through life. It's just not true. The idea that educated people get decision wrong more than uneducated purely due to some perception of emotional intelligence simply isn't grounded in reality.
The idea that intelligence means they will consider themselves rather than be empathic is also false. Dawkins and others float the idea of the selfish gene and how 99% of us have this. It is the idea that empathy is purely selfishness based on us being social animals and therefore for ourself to survive we need our society to thrive. If intelligence makes us less empathic, it makes us more selfish, thus we would more likely make decisions for our society benefit and not just for ourselves. Many of the remain voters that I know, myself included did it based purely on single market access. The reason being that other people in the UK will suffer badly, not myself, but my fellow brits.
Those that are more educated are generally more emotionally intelligent, and those that are less educated are generally less emotionally intelligent as a group.
So this statement below is egregious and illusory, it paints the idea that somehow educated people are some form of socially and emotionally inept nerds that need someone that understands the real world to help them through life. It's just not true. The idea that educated people get decision wrong more than uneducated purely due to some perception of emotional intelligence simply isn't grounded in reality.
The idea that intelligence means they will consider themselves rather than be empathic is also false. Dawkins and others float the idea of the selfish gene and how 99% of us have this. It is the idea that empathy is purely selfishness based on us being social animals and therefore for ourself to survive we need our society to thrive. If intelligence makes us less empathic, it makes us more selfish, thus we would more likely make decisions for our society benefit and not just for ourselves. Many of the remain voters that I know, myself included did it based purely on single market access. The reason being that other people in the UK will suffer badly, not myself, but my fellow brits.
Scrote
Well-known member
I don't want to go down a rabbit-hole with this and derail the thread, but you've completely mis-represented what I've actually written.
Possibly because you're highly educated...
BoroMart
Well-known member
I haven't misrepresented what you've said, I've put it in the context that actually the less educated tend to be the ones with the worst emotional intelligence, so regardless how you want to label it, the result is the same.I don't want to go down a rabbit-hole with this and derail the thread, but you've completely mis-represented what I've actually written.
Possibly because you're highly educated...
I'm just not a fan of underplaying the role of education, sorry if that offends.