UK exports to European Union drop 40% in January

[Scrote]

I haven't misrepresented what you've said, I've put it in the context that actually the less educated tend to be the ones with the worst emotional intelligence, so regardless how you want to label it, the result is the same.

I'm just not a fan of underplaying the role of education, sorry if that offends.

Are educated people more likely to be wealthy or are wealthy people more likely to be educated?

Wealth (and therefore security) is a better indicator for EI than education.

That educated people are likely to have higher EI is down to educated people generally being more wealthy, and therefore more secure - not that being educated directly releases the inner EI.

Otherwise you wouldn't have the current Tory party - all highly (or expensively?) educated.

You're trying to imply that I've said that educated people can't be empathetic, which is just a fantastical reading of what's been written. What I said, was that in my view, at any level of comparative education leave voters were less emotionally intelligent than remain voters.

My argument - based on Lefty's questions and related to my own experience - is that, regardless of education, the people I know that display a higher level of empathetic thinking, were more likely to vote remain.

 

[bear66]

Are educated people more likely to be wealthy or are wealthy people more likely to be educated?

Wealth (and therefore security) is a better indicator for EI than education.

That educated people are likely to have higher EI is down to educated people generally being more wealthy, and therefore more secure - not that being educated directly releases the inner EI.

Otherwise you wouldn't have the current Tory party - all highly (or expensively?) educated.

You're trying to imply that I've said that educated people can't be empathetic, which is just a fantastical reading of what's been written. What I said, was that in my view, at any level of comparative education leave voters were less emotionally intelligent than remain voters.

My argument - based on Lefty's questions and related to my own experience - is that, regardless of education, the people I know that display a higher level of empathetic thinking, were more likely to vote remain.

There are a lot of graduate professions that area aren't highly paid. Librarians were the example often given.

 

[HundredRoom]

You equate accepting a result with being silent about it. That’s not how a functioning democracy works I’m afraid. To suggest otherwise demonstrates ignorance. I can accept the result and yet (a) argue against it and (b) point out the consequences of the result. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.




This is what you claim I have said. I’m waiting for the links you promised.

My contention is that I’ve never said that. What I have said though is that I would fully accept the result of any fair and legal referendum that does not involve fraud or data protection breaches.

Your strawman argument completely fails. You are either unable or unwilling to understand. As I’ve said a few times, I can explain it to you but I can’t understand it for you.




The ‘scare headlines’ are coming true in front of your very eyes. You choose to ignore or deny them, preferring to think everything is ‘running smoothly’.

But no, my objection to the referendum was not simply that there was misinformation, though your argument appears to be that the referendum result is more acceptable because both sides engaged is lies and misinformation. A truly bizarre thought process. But let’s put that to one side. My objection to the referendum is that there was electoral fraud on a scale never before seen that then funded a never before seen social media campaign that was built on very serious data protection breaches. So I repeat: I would accept the result of any referendum that did not have those features to it.

So as you have just stated - you do not accept the result for the reasons you have stated
But this is politics. Its a dirty game.

From your beloved Guardian :
"
With one month to go to the referendum, George Osborne is pulling out all the stops. The chancellor has a clear message: a vote to leave the EU is a vote for recession, a house price slump, soaring food prices and hundreds of thousands of lost jobs.

The chancellor has been shouting out numbers and lamenting the fate of the “working people of Britain who will pay the price if we leave the EU”. He even talked about “evidence” Britain will spark its own downturn.

What evidence?​

Let’s be clear, all Osborne has are “scenarios”. At best, semi-educated guesses, pulled out of models that make a host of assumptions over what the post-Brexit future holds. "

--------

None of which have come to pass.

I do understand the Guardians dilemma though. They had to support a government/ideology they loath in order to support the remain stance they loved. They never quite got it right did they.?


A far as digging out your posts with regards to accepting the result of a new referendum. Those posts were made on the old message board which is not searchable.
But that is irrelevant because you have stated in this thread that you would not accept the result if the vote did not comply to your standards.

But then it goes on and on doesn't it. The vote may not comply to my standards so I could declare it unfair.

You are in the same camp as Donald Trump. You simply declare electoral fraud and don't accept the result.

Note to self : Do not wast your time looking for posts that a user has already just repeated

 

[Adi_Dem]

So as you have just stated - you do not accept the result for the reasons you have stated
But this is politics. Its a dirty game.

From your beloved Guardian :
"
With one month to go to the referendum, George Osborne is pulling out all the stops. The chancellor has a clear message: a vote to leave the EU is a vote for recession, a house price slump, soaring food prices and hundreds of thousands of lost jobs.

The chancellor has been shouting out numbers and lamenting the fate of the “working people of Britain who will pay the price if we leave the EU”. He even talked about “evidence” Britain will spark its own downturn.

What evidence?​

Let’s be clear, all Osborne has are “scenarios”. At best, semi-educated guesses, pulled out of models that make a host of assumptions over what the post-Brexit future holds. "

--------

None of which have come to pass.

I do understand the Guardians dilemma though. They had to support a government/ideology they loath in order to support the remain stance they loved. They never quite got it right did they.?


A far as digging out your posts with regards to accepting the result of a new referendum. Those posts were made on the old message board which is not searchable.
But that is irrelevant because you have stated in this thread that you would not accept the result if the vote did not comply to your standards.

But then it goes on and on doesn't it. The vote may not comply to my standards so I could declare it unfair.

You are in the same camp as Donald Trump. You simply declare electoral fraud and don't accept the result.

Note to self : Do not wast your time looking for posts that a user has already just repeated

You’re quite ridiculous. I mean laughably ridiculous. That you deny those things are happening right now and instead believe everything is going ‘smoothly’ just about sums it up. Probably clinical levels of denial and delusion.

Your contention was that I had said I would only accept a referendum result if the vote was to remain. I called you a liar. You said you’d dig up such threads because I’d called you a liar. You now say that (a) you can’t find the threads and (b) that in this thread I’ve repeated it anyway so no need to look.

Stop embarrassing yourself, it’s pitiful.

I will Janet & John it for you:

This is what you claim I have repeatedly said: “I will only accept a referendum vote that is in favour of remain.”

This is what I have actually repeatedly said: “I will accept any referendum result that is a fair vote without electoral fraud or data protection breaches” (a really low bar of a condition btw).

Can you tell the difference between those two statements? If you genuinely can’t then I think it’s probably kinder of me to stop engaging with you.

Your choice.

 

[Trug]

Adi- the other thing that you can add to that is that EU citizens in the UK be allowed to vote and British citizens in the EU be allowed to vote- for some reason these people were not allowed to vote in the "advisory non binding" referendum that Nigel Farage said if it it finished at 52- 48 remain he would seek another vote.

 

[HundredRoom]

You’re quite ridiculous. I mean laughably ridiculous. That you deny those things are happening right now and instead believe everything is going ‘smoothly’ just about sums it up. Probably clinical levels of denial and delusion.

Your contention was that I had said I would only accept a referendum result if the vote was to remain. I called you a liar. You said you’d dig up such threads because I’d called you a liar. You now say that (a) you can’t find the threads and (b) that in this thread I’ve repeated it anyway so no need to look.

Stop embarrassing yourself, it’s pitiful.

I will Janet & John it for you:

This is what you claim I have repeatedly said: “I will only accept a referendum vote that is in favour of remain.”

This is what I have actually repeatedly said: “I will accept any referendum result that is a fair vote without electoral fraud or data protection breaches” (a really low bar of a condition btw).

Can you tell the difference between those two statements? If you genuinely can’t then I think it’s probably kinder of me to stop engaging with you.

Your choice.

The threads are not searchable as they are on the old board. Thats a fact. So I cannot quote them back at you. However I remember distinctly me asking you the question at the time.

It was in relation to Jo Swinson declaring the very same stance as to wanting a second referendum but not willing to accept the result if was to leave, so would be around about 2106/2017

And you quoted the same nonsense then that you are spouting now about untruths. I accept the untruths on both sides. Who's untruths were the worst. ? Well I just quoted Osbornes untruths from the Guardian. They are pretty damning now we know the truth.

There has probably never been a 100% fair election anywhere in history. But I believe that one was as fair as it is just about as possible to be.

Please don't call me embarrassing or pitiful or ridiculous or Jack and Jill me. It does not reflect well on you.
Otherwise I will just throw your insults back at you.

 

[Adi_Dem]

The threads are not searchable as they are on the old board. Thats a fact. So I cannot quote them back at you. However I remember distinctly me asking you the question at the time.

It was in relation to Jo Swinson declaring the very same stance as to wanting a second referendum but not willing to accept the result if was to leave, so would be around about 2106/2017

Does this stuff make sense in your head? You have literally just said that I am saying the same thing now as then hence there being no need to search the posts because I am being consistent. Given that, it was then a very simple question as to whether you understood the difference between the two statements i.e. what you claim I said (with your very clear memory) and what I actually said (which, bizarrely you say renders it futile to search the old threads because I am simply repeating myself). Clearly therefore you don't understand the very clear difference. My answer today is the same as it would have been back then i.e. the second of the two statements you find indistinguishable.

And you quoted the same nonsense then that you are spouting now about untruths. I accept the untruths on both sides. Who's untruths were the worst. ? Well I just quoted Osbornes untruths from the Guardian. They are pretty damning now we know the truth.

I will repeat myself again. This isn't about untruths. IF you want to talk about untruths we can because it is overwhelmingly clear which 'side' was the worst culprit. Most if not all of Project Fear is coming true (despite your delusional denial) and absolutely all of the vote Leave claims have fallen apart and been proven to be what they were: lies. You ask which untruths were worse "now we know the truth". That is the most ridiculous thing I think I've read. Did you even look at the links I have posted? We are seeing in real time the catastrophic damage that Vote Leave's untruths have inflicted. Objective, cold facts. The links are in this thread. Hundreds of stories in which businesses are suffering, the economy is suffering, the peace process in Ireland is being pushed towards a breaking point. That you can sit behind your keyboard and type this guff leads me to conclude that you must be delusional. It is the only logical conclusion.

You also still keep repeating this mantra that because both sides were lying it somehow justifies the result. As above, can you not see the illogical hypocrisy and abhorrence of that view? Again, I guess not.

But as I said, my point is not about that. My point is very clear. Vote Leave and many of the people behind it have been proven to have committed serious electoral financial fraud. That fraud directly led to the funding of what has been proven to be a crucial social media campaign timed at exactly the right moment to have the maximum impact. Moreover, that social media campaign was built on very serious privacy and data protection breaches. Those arent' my opinions, they are absolute facts and go well beyond just 'misinformation' or 'untruths'.

here has probably never been a 100% fair election anywhere in history. But I believe that one was as fair as it is just about as possible to be.

And this sums it up. Just pig headed ignorance and delusion.

 

[HundredRoom]

I didn't say it futile to search old threads. I said its impossible. They don't exist.

If only Donald Trump had had you on his team when he refused to accept a result he might have got the result reversed.
He also claimed electoral irregularities.

Project fear was attributed to the remain side not leave specifically Osborne . But hey nice switch

Where is the house price slump ?
Where are the soaring food prices ?
Hundreds of thousands of job losses ? - thats COVID not Brexit


Claim: Unemployment ‘would increase by around 500,000’ in the wake of a Brexit vote.

Reality: False. Britain’s employment rate has risen since the referendum. In the three months to January, unemployment fell to 4.7 per cent – the best rate since 1975.

But in conclusion: What do you want now ? In terms of Brexit/EU. What is your way forward to get us out the mess that you perceive.

You see unless you see a way forward you just come across as whinging sore loser

 

[Adi_Dem]

I didn't say it futile to search old threads. I said its impossible. They don't exist.

Read what I wrote properly. I said that it was futile because according to you I am repeating what I said in this very thread. You do remember writing "Note to self : Do not wast your time looking for posts that a user has already just repeated" don't you?

If only Donald Trump had had you on his team when he refused to accept a result he might have got the result reversed.
He also claimed electoral irregularities.

His were tested in court and proven to be false. The 'irregularities' in the referendum were proven and resulted in a guilty finding in relation to electoral fraud (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44856992) and ICO fines for data protection breaches. False equivalence again. You're really not doing well here.

Project fear was attributed to the remain side not leave specifically Osborne . But hey nice switch

I didn't switch anything. Of course Project Fear was attributed to the Remain side. Please point me to where I argue otherwise. My point (which was pretty clear) is that Project Fear is coming true in front of our eyes and therefore cannot be said to be 'misinformation'. Vote Leave's claims have all been proven to be lies. You said both sides lied. I say that simply isn't true on anything like an equivalent scale. The evidence is right in front of you.

Where is the house price slump ?
Where are the soaring food prices ?
Hundreds of thousands of job losses ? - thats COVID not Brexit


Claim: Unemployment ‘would increase by around 500,000’ in the wake of a Brexit vote.

Reality: False. Britain’s employment rate has risen since the referendum. In the three months to January, unemployment fell to 4.7 per cent – the best rate since 1975.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Those predictions wouldn't come true after the vote because we still enjoyed the protection of being an EU country up until January of this year. Having been shielded up until that point we are now starting to see pretty catastrophic consequences. If you deny that they are happening then you are denying reality. Those catastrophic consequences are happening whilst we are still in various grace periods that run through the trade agreement. Imagine what's going to happen when those grace periods end.

But in conclusion: What do you want now ? In terms of Brexit/EU. What is your way forward to get us out the mess that you perceive.

You see unless you see a way forward you just come across as whinging sore loser

And there it is. You lost, get over it. Same old same old. The solution and the way forward starts with people like you being honest and the delusion ending. It has to begin there. You were conned. You voted for a unicorn that didn't exist. You need to get angry with the people that conned you. There is nothing about this BRexit that you voted for. It runs contrary to all of the promises you were made in the referendum. Free, frictionless trade, full access to the single market and economic prosperity. You didn't get any of it and the evidence is everywhere you look. It is a clusterfuck. You need to own that and only then can the solutions come. The reality though is that change now won't come for a generation probably. It would be a good start to vote out this disastrous vote leave government and demand a renegotiation that would see us having access to the single market and being part of the customs union. Wholesale changes to the trade deal. That cannot and will not happen though unless or until the deluded folk like you acknowledge the problem.

 

[Centralscrutinizer]

https://images.app.goo.gl/CFAzS96qguXMSVEu9

 

[Nobby_Barnes]

https://images.app.goo.gl/CFAzS96qguXMSVEu9

Hahahhahahha hilarious...
This thread is following a well trodden path...

 

[Redwurzel]

In many cases in England, the further away from London the more likely you were to vote Leave - the big leave areas were the North East (ex Newcastle), the Potteries, North Lincolnshire, North Notts, Herefordshire and Cornwall - all over 160 miles or more from London - I would say geography was more critical than education. Large cities have done well since 1993 while regional towns generally have not unless close to a big city or in the South East.

Free trade is good for overall prosperity but the EU does not represent free trade. It only represents free trade within the EU otherwise it promotes restricted trade to protect EU producers. Hence there are strict quotas and tariffs on imported non EU cars and quite a number of foodstuffs. A lot of the discussions on what is best were too complicated and complex for everyone.

 

[Nobby_Barnes]

I'm sure it will all sort itself out in the end...

 

[Lefty]

Would any Leave voters care to give some thoughts from their perspective, as a generalisation, on perhaps why Leave voters voted the way they did and Remain voters voted so differently?

Was it because the voters in each camp made fundamentally different approaches to the question they were asked?

if the answer to that is yes, then how so and why? And is that true in general or just to this or certain political questions? If the answer is probably no, both sides approached the question using their usual tools of reasoning then is the reason each side voted the way they did not because of a flawed or different approach but because of different values and ultimate aims?

If the values on both sides, the ultimate aims similar, then could something else explain it, such as those voting one way being on the whole more intelligent? Or more....something?

If there are similar problem solving skills, similar values, similar intelligence then what else might explain it, because although for some the call was marginal, for massive proportions of Leave and Remain voters, there is very little doubt in them before and even less so in the years since?

 

[HundredRoom]

And there it is. You lost, get over it. Same old same old. The solution and the way forward starts with people like you being honest and the delusion ending. It has to begin there. You were conned. You voted for a unicorn that didn't exist. You need to get angry with the people that conned you. There is nothing about this BRexit that you voted for. It runs contrary to all of the promises you were made in the referendum. Free, frictionless trade, full access to the single market and economic prosperity. You didn't get any of it and the evidence is everywhere you look. It is a clusterfuck. You need to own that and only then can the solutions come. The reality though is that change now won't come for a generation probably. It would be a good start to vote out this disastrous vote leave government and demand a renegotiation that would see us having access to the single market and being part of the customs union. Wholesale changes to the trade deal. That cannot and will not happen though unless or until the deluded folk like you acknowledge the problem.

So thats what you want. You want all the leave voters (I was not one by the way but you assume I did wrongly) to grovel down and beg forgiveness. You are deluded to think that individuals should be like you banging their heads for the next 20 years. Thats your timescale isn't it to see real change. We are not on this Earth that long to spend most of it in a state of hate.

And yes you have a correct summary - get over it. Its 5 years almost now
People like me ?

What do you mean by "I need to own it". Do I? What should I do? I am recognising the outcome of the vote regardless of electoral irregularities , of which there were findings of irregularities on both sides namely

Britain Stronger in Europe - fined by electoral commission
Liberal party - fined by electoral commission
Constitutional Research Council - fined by electoral commission

"Wholesale changes to the trade deal." ?
Do you just want to sit around a table for another 5 years 10 years ? . But I do recognise sitting round the table over beer and sandwiches is a well known trait of the do nowts

 

[Adi_Dem]

So thats what you want. You want all the leave voters (I was not one by the way but you assume I did wrongly) to grovel down and beg forgiveness. You are deluded to think that individuals should be like you banging their heads for the next 20 years. Thats your timescale isn't it to see real change. We are not on this Earth that long to spend most of it in a state of hate.

You are clearly incapable of reading, understanding and responding to the points actually made. That isn’t what I said and I don’t hate anyone. I don’t want groveling or begging for forgiveness. I want an acknowledgment of reality rather than delusion.

And yes you have a correct summary - get over it. Its 5 years almost now
People like me ?

It’s 5 years and we have only just left. Moreover we aren’t even at the end. The nature of the trade agreement means years and years of ongoing negotiation, coverage and discussion. If you think it’s something that is just going to go away then you’re naive.

What do you mean by "I need to own it". Do I? What should I do?

Really simple. Stop denying reality. Stop the delusion.

electoral irregularities , of which there were findings of irregularities on both sides namely

You keep using the word ‘irregularities’ as a euphemism. It was serious electoral fraud and data protection breaches. You also keep saying both sides were at it as if that somehow strengthens your argument. It doesn’t, it weakens it.

Do you just want to sit around a table for another 5 years 10 years ?

That’s going to happen anyway. If you understood the trade agreement reached and the huge gaps in it then you’d realize that.

But I do recognise sitting round the table over beer and sandwiches is a well known trait of the do nowts

And then the insults. Inevitable I suppose.

I‘m done. You’re simply not worth my time. The thread speaks for itself. Ignore button time.

 

[Lefty]

@HundredRoom

Would you like to have a go at answering the questions I’ve posed in post #114?

It’s not a trap, it would just be nice to hear a Leave voters thoughts on it. I am pretty familiar with a lot of Remain views. I know many Leave voters consider Remainers have a high opinion of themselves so perhaps that is something you consider a factor rather than intelligence for instance? Maybe it even gets in the way of intelligence?

I mean, is it not something you’ve even given some idle thought to at any time since the vote? Are you simply content to accept that we are a divided population on this subject and indeed on politics in general and no more thought than that as to why, because you are on the winning side? Do you think that away from politics we have two distinct and separate mindsets and approaches to life?

Please give some insight? As far as I am concerned, Brexit is done now. For good or ill it has to play itself out. It could be the mistake I thought it would be, in which case the value might be in learning lessons on what led to the decision is the positive that might come. It could be the success we were promised in which case Remainers need to look at themselves see the lessons they can learn. It could be the damage is as predicted, but there is a paradigm shift in the balance of the economy that does lead to a much happier, equal society even if it is less wealthy. I’d take the latter actually. A happy accident would allow both sides to claim they were right in some way and that might heal the dreadful division of the last 5 years.

That’s if you haven’t blocked me.

 

[NYboro]

Adi- the other thing that you can add to that is that EU citizens in the UK be allowed to vote and British citizens in the EU be allowed to vote- for some reason these people were not allowed to vote in the "advisory non binding" referendum that Nigel Farage said if it it finished at 52- 48 remain he would seek another vote.

Anyone residing outside the UK could not vote. In fact, I have been completely disenfranchised for some 6 years. I'm looking forward to registering on the electoral role in July.

 

[NYboro]

I'm sure it will all sort itself out in the end...

So am I. When we rejoin the EU.

 

[HundredRoom]

In many cases in England, the further away from London the more likely you were to vote Leave - the big leave areas were the North East (ex Newcastle), the Potteries, North Lincolnshire, North Notts, Herefordshire and Cornwall - all over 160 miles or more from London - I would say geography was more critical than education. Large cities have done well since 1993 while regional towns generally have not unless close to a big city or in the South East.

Free trade is good for overall prosperity but the EU does not represent free trade. It only represents free trade within the EU otherwise it promotes restricted trade to protect EU producers. Hence there are strict quotas and tariffs on imported non EU cars and quite a number of foodstuffs. A lot of the discussions on what is best were too complicated and complex for everyone.

Yes there were many different reasons why people voted leave. Not only economic. The massive social changes were a big factor too.

@HundredRoom

Would you like to have a go at answering the questions I’ve posed in post #114?

It’s not a trap, it would just be nice to hear a Leave voters thoughts on it. I am pretty familiar with a lot of Remain views. I know many Leave voters consider Remainers have a high opinion of themselves so perhaps that is something you consider a factor rather than intelligence for instance? Maybe it even gets in the way of intelligence?

I mean, is it not something you’ve even given some idle thought to at any time since the vote? Are you simply content to accept that we are a divided population on this subject and indeed on politics in general and no more thought than that as to why, because you are on the winning side? Do you think that away from politics we have two distinct and separate mindsets and approaches to life?

Please give some insight? As far as I am concerned, Brexit is done now. For good or ill it has to play itself out. It could be the mistake I thought it would be, in which case the value might be in learning lessons on what led to the decision is the positive that might come. It could be the success we were promised in which case Remainers need to look at themselves see the lessons they can learn. It could be the damage is as predicted, but there is a paradigm shift in the balance of the economy that does lead to a much happier, equal society even if it is less wealthy. I’d take the latter actually. A happy accident would allow both sides to claim they were right in some way and that might heal the dreadful division of the last 5 years.

That’s if you haven’t blocked me.

I don't use the block facility indiscriminately. I have only one person I have blocked over a few years who took it upon himself to throw personal insults at every opportunity to the point of obsession.
Unfortunately this thread has turned toxic so there is no point engaging anymore.

No disrespect to you but I will not go through your points one by one. but I will say I never thought Brexit was a good idea when it got close to the vote. It simply did not stack up on a risk/reward analysis. But I do respect the result and
the opportunity that was seized by the disenfranchised/forgotten people of the nation to stick one to the elitest tory dominated establishment , the champagne socialists , the lefty indoctrinated universities , the leftist media especially the BBC, and all achieved at the ballot box.

Its sad that it had to be on an issue that is so important but what else could it have been ?


I would like to use this forum for an exchange of views. I have to say when someone as articulate and as well researched as Adi_Dem throws personal insults around with almost every post they hit a bit harder.
So well done to them. In that respect they have an achievement.