Southgate - England's best manager?

Nope. Alf Ramsay by a country mile; and Sir Alf didn't have to play San Marino and Andorra to qualify for major tournaments. His teams had to beat your Italys and Germanys to get through.
 
'The reason France came storming through after years of failure was they professionalised training'

Or maybe not. Perhaps, like Belgium and Spain they've hit a spell where the players they have to choose from are of a higher calibre than previously.

You pointed out that the Germans have been doing this thing for years, yet they struggled in the last competition finals. Their players not as good as they were in the past. The Germans, like Brazil have a fantastic track record in the world cup. It goes back a long way for the pair of them, Italy too, who are now European champions and have just come out of a very good run, again, their playing squad was better than they had previously.
 
'Alf Ramsay by a country mile; and Sir Alf didn't have to play San Marino and Andorra to qualify for major tournaments.'

How many did we qualify for under him (1966 doesn't count, we qualified being the home nation) and how many did we fail to qualify under him?
 
Andy_W said:
It's a good point that we've done all that whilst bringing through a load of talent.

It's just as long as the talent can keep replacing or bettering what is going out the door.

My only worry is if Kane gets injured, there's nothing coming through who could come close to matching him, not without changing our style which is working.

Mason Greenwood could be one of the best potential scorers we have, but he needs time up front, as a centre forward as the main striker for his club, never mind the national team. I think him being at Man Utd will end up bad for him, unless when Cavani and Ronaldo go, he's used as their number 1 choice. I don't think that will happen, I think Man Utd will want a "ready" replacement, but well have to see in a year or two. He won't be a CF starter for England until he's a CF starter for his club, and he's got Rashford to contend with too. Rashford will have to stay out wider, but I think that's more natural for him.

Sterling needs to leave City to get game time, and Sancho needs to start playing club football too, a lot of England's secondary forwards are bit players for their club.
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Goal scorer’s like Kane are so rare that every country with a goal scorer like that would have a similar problem if they got injured . I can’t think of a country that has two strikers of that quality, very few even have one.

I definitely agree about Greenwood. He looks an excellent finisher but is going to get limited game time at Man Utd as it stands. I know he’s young but I think with excellent finishers like that, they need to be playing regularly and gathering real momentum in their careers. Besides, he’s 20, not a baby really. The seasons fly by and you would want him to be really making his mark and being consistent in the next couple of seasons.
 
Michael_Vronsky said:
Nope. Alf Ramsay by a country mile; and Sir Alf didn't have to play San Marino and Andorra to qualify for major tournaments. His teams had to beat your Italys and Germanys to get through.
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no but he had to play Poland and Wales when they basically had the equivalent of a Northern League side. Lets not kid ourselves that 1974 was anything but a complete national embarrassment
 
Corcaigh_the_Cat said:
Or maybe not. Perhaps, like Belgium and Spain they've hit a spell where the players they have to choose from are of a higher calibre than previously.
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Don't be silly, they had high callibre players in the past, Spain might have ignored certain players due to politics, but france didin't
 
Corcaigh_the_Cat said:
You pointed out that the Germans have been doing this thing for years, yet they struggled in the last competition finals. Their players not as good as they were in the past.
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They lost out to us, because we got ourselves together, and had a strategic approach to creating talent. We did what they did, but better
 
zzzzz said:
Ramsey, Venebles, Hoddle and Sir Bobby all in front of Southgate.
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If ever a person was deliberately being controversial this is it!!

Venebles? One tournament that didn't need to be qualified for and only 5 games played (directly to Quarter-Final from Group Stage)
Hoddle - Did well to qualify for 98 ahead of Italy and England were unlucky to get knocked out early, but Hoddle was sacked soon after
Robson - Didn't qualify for 84, hand of god in 86, knocked out in the groups of 88 but did very well in 90
 
zzzzz said:
Ramsey, Venebles, Hoddle and Sir Bobby all in front of Southgate.
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Ramsey possibly, but we can't ignore his failures, southgate doesn't really have any failures to that level.

Venebles had a poor win rate, and 'froze' playing an average German side. We should, at home, have won that semi and we would have won the competition. Looking at the players we had and the fact that german team was mediocre, we should have won that, he blew it

Hoddle was poor, although at least made the brave decision to axe Gazza, but he should have been working better with him for a year to help solve his issues. Awful man manager but at least recognised that we needed to play more possession which he had limited success with.

Bobby's time is over-rated, failed to qualify for Euro 84, and lets not get into the absolute shambles of 88, the worst tournament performance in my lifetime. In 86 he bottled playing John Barnes and didn't beat anyone of note: sneaked out of a group with Morrocco and Poland, lost to a very poor portugal who came bottom of the group. Beat a very poor Paraguay in the 2nd round.

90 was his redemption for previous failures (and lets not forget most england fans wanted him gone 2 or 4 years earlier), we started off very slow and sneaked through the groups, good but tight win against Belgium, and a fortunate win against Cameroon, no shame in losing to a good german side, but in todays social media world he'd have been ,lambasted for bottling it and failing to react to the Germans equalising.

So Ramsey decent but some big failures, Hoddle no chance, Bobby mixed bag, Venebles no chance
 
Glover_elbow said:
I would take hoddle out of that list
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Nero said:
If ever a person was deliberately being controversial this is it!!

Venebles? One tournament that didn't need to be qualified for and only 5 games played (directly to Quarter-Final from Group Stage)
Hoddle - Did well to qualify for 98 ahead of Italy and England were unlucky to get knocked out early, but Hoddle was sacked soon after
Robson - Didn't qualify for 84, hand of god in 86, knocked out in the groups of 88 but did very well in 90
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Not at all, its what I believe.
Southgate has done well, no doubt about that.
But he's been blessed with a generation of fine players who consistently play in a league that is now the highest standard and most competeitive in the world.
Failed miserably as a club Manager, we saw that first hand.
As a yes man got shoed into the U21s and as a yes man got the England job, mainly because there was nobody else.
To say he's the best ever when he has won nothing is frankly silly.
If we do under his leadership I'll change my mind, until then, no.
 
zzzzz said:
Not at all, its what I believe.
Southgate has done well, no doubt about that.
But he's been blessed with a generation of fine players who consistently play in a league that is now the highest standard and most competeitive in the world.
Failed miserably as a club Manager, we saw that first hand.
As a yes man got shoed into the U21s and as a yes man got the England job, mainly because there was nobody else.
To say he's the best ever when he has won nothing is frankly silly.
If we do under his leadership I'll change my mind, until then, no.
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You believe Venables, Hoddle and Robson are better? Seriously! Hoddle and Venables had one tournament each. That alone rules them out.
 
zzzzz said:
But he's been blessed with a generation of fine players who consistently play in a league that is now the highest standard and most competeitive in the world.
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as already pointed out, previous managers including those listed above had fine generations of players too

zzzzz said:
Failed miserably as a club Manager, we saw that first hand.
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Failed in his third season, failed miserably would have been do a Woodgate and get sacked after 6 months

zzzzz said:
As a yes man got shoed into the U21s and as a yes man got the England job, mainly because there was nobody else.
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Yes man is exactly what Southgate isn't, I thought that was pretty clear. Can you give examples of why you think he is a yes man?

zzzzz said:
To say he's the best ever when he has won nothing is frankly sil
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I questioned if he had achieved that. Winning 1 trophy and failing at others doesn't make you the best, Ramsey had an amazing generation of players and actually by the end of his tenure we were a laughing stock of world football and had fallen so far behind the elites it cannot and should not be brushed under the carpet. For a full 3 dimensional view of his tenure you have to look at the highs and lows, not just the highs., but if you insist on just focusing on the highs then that puts southgate automatically our second greatest manager being the only manager to reach a final.
 
BoroMart said:
as already pointed out, previous managers including those listed above had fine generations of players too


Failed in his third season, failed miserably would have been do a Woodgate and get sacked after 6 months


Yes man is exactly what Southgate isn't, I thought that was pretty clear. Can you give examples of why you think he is a yes man?


I questioned if he had achieved that. Winning 1 trophy and failing at others doesn't make you the best, Ramsey had an amazing generation of players and actually by the end of his tenure we were a laughing stock of world football and had fallen so far behind the elites it cannot and should not be brushed under the carpet. For a full 3 dimensional view of his tenure you have to look at the highs and lows, not just the highs., but if you insist on just focusing on the highs then that puts southgate automatically our second greatest manager being the only manager to reach a final.
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Ramsey there is a case for - but Hoddle and Venables is mad. They each had better club management careers - but by any measure Southgate has done better than them.

Look at Hoddle's squad for France 98 - it pure class from top to bottom.
 
The only way Southgate is the FA's yes man is if the question from the FA was "Gareth do you think you can lift the England team from the depths of some of the greatest embarrassments we've ever experienced between 2008 and 2016 and turn them into genuine contenders for every competition we enter?"
 
This idea that Southgate has only been successful because he has been lucky with players compared to previous managers is utter rubbish.

Look at the players Venables, Hoddle and Sven had, look at the fact that in the 2008 Champions league final there were TEN English players starting..and England couldn't even qualify for the tournament nevermind get to the final of the Euros.

I also don't agree we have to win something for him to be considered successful. We had been a shambolic embarrassment for years before he took over, now we are as good as any other national team in the world. I'm happy with that.
 
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