In praise of EV'S

[JustTheGent]

The running costs are important, extremely important when electric is 1/4 the price of fuel, and VED is free. But you can estimate, and have margins of error/ or change of use estimates which is what I do.

Most batteries are covered for 7/8 years, or 100,000 miles, along with the motor, not many engines are covered for that, certainly not high performance ones. There's less to "go wrong" in an electric motor, as they're effectively brushless, and brushless high power motors have been used for decades. The batteries are proven tech, with a proven lifecycle.

Obv an electric car isn't paying for a fan belt, clutch, brakes, pads etc. Who would buy a 70k mile car and not be worried about any of those going, and of course going out of warranty? How much is a new 400BHP engine from BMW, Porsche, Merc etc including labour? 20k+?

I fully expect ICE vehicles to drop like a stone once EV's get to half the market. Diesels will sink first, and 2022 will be the first year electrics out sell diesels.
There will be a clamour of people coming round to the idea of EV's and then to sell diesels, then petrol's etc. Classic cars and one-offs might escape, but 95% of ICE cars are not in that category.

I've got and expensive EV, and getting an even more expensive one, but the model works the same for a 30k or 40k one and other numbers, it just scales down.

Different on used markets, as there's not much choice in used EV's from BMW, Audi, Merc, VW etc, but give it a few years and they will filter down.

Most of my comparisons are on new, like for like cars. That argument is already won by EV's, which will mean it's won in 3 years when they trickle down. There will be a big ICE sell off from 2025-2030 I expect, so you've got a good few years of relatively safe ICE motoring before then.

The running costs are important but so is the initial cost of the vehicle. Knowing the initial fixed cost of purchase is vital for most people. Get that out the way and then you can start to work out other calculations. But it's foolhardy to just roll it all into one in the form of a monthly payment, at least for most people. Nothing illustrates that more than the times we currently live in. Those going for electric vehicles pre pandemic won't have been hitting the expected savings on fuel, far from it. That's just a simple example of how running costs are variable.

BMW, Porsche and Mercedes are known as some of the most unreliable used vehicles on the market. As they age, the technology in them breaks down meaning potential huge repair bills. Electric vehicles are loaded with technology, so these will more than likely have big problems in the future. The more complex something is the more difficult and expensive it is to fix. Give me brake pads and fan belts anytime - just take it to a good independent mechanic to get fixed at a fair price.

I hope petrol and diesels do fall in price, it will make them an even better buy over EVs than they are already. But there's no sign of that at the moment, used petrols and diesels are trading at record highs.

With regards to battery warranty, you've got to be careful what the warranty actually says. I know someone who had their EV range vastly reduced but was told there was nothing wrong with the battery. It was said that the battery deteriorates naturally and this was backed up in the small print.

In terms of ICE motoring, of course it's safe. I'm already winning by saving a fortune not having spent a fortune on an EV. Long may it continue

 

[Laughing]

That might hold value, or even go up, if you can keep the miles off it?

Hopefully they don't use the same turbo's as the RX-7 £££££

Its conventionally aspirated Andy, and had a rebuild 10k miles ago. The rebuild included 2 rotor housing which aren't generally included.

 

[JustTheGent]

I expect he's had both to be fair, like I have. It's more an account of actual reality, than praise that I see him posting.

It's not dismissing concerns, not from me anyway, I'm just trying to explain how most are no issue, to most people.

There will be outliers of course, like some guy who might want to drive a 5 year old car, and drive to Bristol and back without stopping, but there's not many doing that. Same if someone want's to tow a digger around, I probably wouldn't advise that with an EV.

Apart from pulling a digger around, I'd say anyone wanting to own a vehicle properly and spend less than 20k (perhaps more) is better off not going for an EV.

 

[Andy_W]

Its conventionally aspirated Andy, and had a rebuild 10k miles ago. The rebuild included 2 rotor housing which aren't generally included.

That the same power as the old one then, that was twin turbo I think, but probably had a lesser powered engine without the turbo's?

I might be wrong mind, know a couple of people that had them, but was a long while ago.

 

[Andy_W]

Apart from pulling a digger around, I'd say anyone wanting to own a vehicle properly and spend less than 20k (perhaps more) is better off not going for an EV.

Depends what you mean by "properly", I expect most think they own their houses "properly", but in fact don't.

Ownership is largely irrelevant, what you're paying and what you're getting and what you have at the end isn't, that's far more important.

Even if you buy a 20k car outright, you're not getting away with spending 20k, unless you plan to keep it on your drive.

A 20k car bought outright could lose 10k in 3 years, cost 10k in fuel and cost 5k in running. 25k in 3 years gone, on an old motor.
A 40k car with 20k down, could lose 15k in 3 years, cost 5k in fuel and 0k in running. 20k in 3 years gone, on a new, high tech motor.

Then in 3 years you don't have 20k to buy outright, you've got 15k.
The 40k buyer has got 20k though, and been driving a better car, newer car, in warranty, for the last 3 years.

Then if you bought another ice in 2025, say three years or so, it's 2028 then. So what will the ICE be worth then?

 

[Laughing]

That the same power as the old one then, that was twin turbo I think, but probably had a lesser powered engine without the turbo's?

I might be wrong mind, know a couple of people that had them, but was a long while ago.

The rx7 can be supercharged so is prefered by some. The RX8 in factory fit is more powerful than the rx7 but is so highly tuned you can't do a lot with them without ruining the driveability 170bhp for the stock rx7 and 210bhp for the rx8.

 

[SmallTown]

Depends what you mean by "properly", I expect most think they own their houses "properly", but in fact don't.

Ownership is largely irrelevant, what you're paying and what you're getting and what you have at the end isn't, that's far more important.

Even if you buy a 20k car outright, you're not getting away with spending 20k, unless you plan to keep it on your drive.

A 20k car bought outright could lose 10k in 3 years, cost 10k in fuel and cost 5k in running. 25k in 3 years gone, on an old motor.
A 40k car with 20k down, could lose 15k in 3 years, cost 5k in fuel and 0k in running. 20k in 3 years gone, on a new, high tech motor.

Then in 3 years you don't have 20k to buy outright, you've got 15k.
The 40k buyer has got 20k though, and been driving a better car, newer car, in warranty, for the last 3 years.

Then if you bought another ice in 2025, say three years or so, it's 2028 then. So what will the ICE be worth then?

I think you're wasting your time with mappy.

Given the fact he constantly ignores half the argument and parrots car industry mistruths I think it's fair to say he'll argue white is black on this one. I bet he ends up with an EV within 5 years

 

[JustTheGent]

Depends what you mean by "properly", I expect most think they own their houses "properly", but in fact don't.

Ownership is largely irrelevant, what you're paying and what you're getting and what you have at the end isn't, that's far more important.

Even if you buy a 20k car outright, you're not getting away with spending 20k, unless you plan to keep it on your drive.

A 20k car bought outright could lose 10k in 3 years, cost 10k in fuel and cost 5k in running. 25k in 3 years gone, on an old motor.
A 40k car with 20k down, could lose 15k in 3 years, cost 5k in fuel and 0k in running. 20k in 3 years gone, on a new, high tech motor.

Then in 3 years you don't have 20k to buy outright, you've got 15k.
The 40k buyer has got 20k though, and been driving a better car, newer car, in warranty, for the last 3 years.

Then if you bought another ice in 2025, say three years or so, it's 2028 then. So what will the ICE be worth then?

People take a mortgage out because they generally have to. Used cars can be affordable but I agree with you here, EVs generally are not, so people will tend to do it by monthly payment - like they do with a house. If you spend 20k or 10k or 5k outright on a car, that's what you're spending. Of course, there will be running and maintenance costs, but everybody knows this. Just work them out. Although they could be and will likely be subject to change. Especially with long term ownership.

I wouldn't advise people with a budget of £20k spending £40k under any circumstances. It involves calculations that are subject to change and may not work out. I've seen people do this before and it hasn't worked out. They end up with a long term liability that they couldn't really afford. I know someone who used this logic a while back who ended up buying a car that cost x3 more than they were originally planning. He calculated a scenario where it would be actually cheaper to buy a much more expensive vehicle. This also involved a depreciation calculation. It didn't end well.

I tend to go off the notion that if you can't buy it outright, you can't really afford it. The exception is a house because of course everyone needs somewhere to live. But credit culture is built on people buying things they can't really afford. The motor industry is very much part of this.

 

[BigJack]

My mate bought a second hand Nissan Leaf for about seven grand, he says he gets what feels like virtually free motoring. He has a night time tariff of 5p per unit, so a full charge only costs him about £1.20 or £1.50, i am not sure if he has the 24kw or the 30kw version, plus he tops up free of charge at supermarkets.

It only has a small range by todays standards but he only uses it as a local run around. He is chuffed to bits with it, costs him virtually nothing to run and he can charge it at home every night if he needs too.

He also has a diesel people carrier that he uses for towing the caravan, he has only filled it up twice in the last year, he just uses the Leaf all the time.

Thinking of getting rid of my BMW 320D Tourer and getting a Leaf. I don't do many miles myself. I live in Billingham and most my trips are local around Boro and Stockton. Also venture out to Osmotherly, Swainby and Clay Bank quite a bit, so the limited range should be ok for me. The only problem i will have is when i go on Holiday to the Lake District, i would have to do a bit of planning then.

 

[Andy_W]

People take a mortgage out because they generally have to. Used cars can be affordable but I agree with you here, EVs generally are not, so people will tend to do it by monthly payment - like they do with a house. If you spend 20k or 10k or 5k outright on a car, that's what you're spending. Of course, there will be running and maintenance costs, but everybody knows this. Just work them out. Although they could be and will likely be subject to change. Especially with long term ownership.

I wouldn't advise people with a budget of £20k spending £40k under any circumstances. It involves calculations that are subject to change and may not work out. I've seen people do this before and it hasn't worked out. They end up with a long term liability that they couldn't really afford. I know someone who used this logic a while back who ended up buying a car that cost x3 more than they were originally planning. He calculated a scenario where it would be actually cheaper to buy a much more expensive vehicle. This also involved a depreciation calculation. It didn't end well.

I tend to go off the notion that if you can't buy it outright, you can't really afford it. The exception is a house because of course everyone needs somewhere to live. But credit culture is built on people buying things they can't really afford. The motor industry is very much part of this.

I don’t agree EV’s are unaffordable, quite the opposite. TCO is the only thing that matters, if money matters.

The “budget” includes fuel, maintenance, tax, and the car. Without the former three, your car is pointless, as it won’t move.

You’ve paid into your car, same as someone else, that’s gone until you sell, you have a liability to fuel, tax, maintenance, and the latter is unknown and could be large outside of a warranty.

You could buy 20k m3, and not be able to afford the 300 in fuel a month, or the £500+ tax, or the 20k for a new engine.

Who is saying buy a car 3x more? Nobody. What car was the one your mate bought for 3x more? Not an EV I expect? High power petrol German car maybe?

I bought a car 3x more than my last one though, which has worked out much cheaper TCO than the last one, so that can be done also mind (with the right finance, and right car choice, but clearly a larger risk but potential for greater reward/ car, not for everyone).

The exception isn’t the house, someone might have 100k equity in a 200k house, by your theory they should live in a 100k flat? Or a 50k flat etc.

In reality most people should rent outside of a housing boom, or max out the mortgage when rates are low, and use capital to pay of high interest loans, and they could even invest the rest in the markets, if they don’t need the cash short term. People don’t as they’re not clued up.

You can afford what you can afford, I could buy my new car outright, I don’t as I can make more back by not doing that.

Some have 20% credit cards, 12% used car loans, yet overpay a 1% mortgage, or even pay anything off the mortgage, it’s ludicrous.

One of the problems with higher price cars, is they require more finance, but I’ve pointed that out before. But new car finance is cheaper than used car finance, some even 0%, I factor that in for my calculation. Some people think all “£300 a month” deals are the same, which couldn’t be further from the truth.

 

[Andy_W]

My mate bought a second hand Nissan Leaf for about seven grand, he says he gets what feels like virtually free motoring. He has a night time tariff of 5p per unit, so a full charge only costs him about £1.20 or £1.50, i am not sure if he has the 24kw or the 30kw version, plus he tops up free of charge at supermarkets.

It only has a small range by todays standards but he only uses it as a local run around. He is chuffed to bits with it, costs him virtually nothing to run and he can charge it at home every night if he needs too.

He also has a diesel people carrier that he uses for towing the caravan, he has only filled it up twice in the last year, he just uses the Leaf all the time.

Thinking of getting rid of my BMW 320D Tourer and getting a Leaf. I don't do many miles myself. I live in Billingham and most my trips are local around Boro and Stockton. Also venture out to Osmotherly, Swainby and Clay Bank quite a bit, so the limited range should be ok for me. The only problem i will have is when i go on Holiday to the Lake District, i would have to do a bit of planning then.

Yeah, they’re as close to free motoring as you’ll ever get in that price range, fair play. I can see some of those racking up loads of miles.

A leaf isn’t a 320D mind, but there will be 320D equivalents flooding the market in a few years.

 

[Markburke]

What if you don't have a charging point at home?

It’s a really good point mate and I’m lucky to have a house with a drive. In that case it’s wherever there is a charging point (the advantage in time hopefully is that these can proliferate into convenient places that don’t need a big petrol tanker to supply them such as supermarkets, workplaces, car parks, cinemas etc. Councils apparently are all working on it as well so lots more should be appearing. Less convenient than doing it at home but easy enough to do provided enough are built

 

[JustTheGent]

I don’t agree EV’s are unaffordable, quite the opposite. TCO is the only thing that matters, if money matters.

The “budget” includes fuel, maintenance, tax, and the car. Without the former three, your car is pointless, as it won’t move.

You’ve paid into your car, same as someone else, that’s gone until you sell, you have a liability to fuel, tax, maintenance, and the latter is unknown and could be large outside of a warranty.

You could buy 20k m3, and not be able to afford the 300 in fuel a month, or the £500+ tax, or the 20k for a new engine.

Who is saying buy a car 3x more? Nobody.

I bought a car 3x more than my last one though, which has worked out much cheaper TCO than the last one, so that can be done also mind (with the right finance, and right car choice).

The exception isn’t the house, someone might have 100k equity in a 200k house, by your theory they should live in a 100k flat? Or a 50k flat etc.

In reality most people should rent outside of a housing boom, or max out the mortgage when rates are low, and use capital to pay of high interest loans, and they could even invest the rest in the markets, if they don’t need the cash short term. People don’t as they’re not clued up.

You can afford what you can afford, I could buy my new car outright, I don’t as I can make more back by not doing that.

Some have 20% credit cards, 12% used car loans, yet overpay a 1% mortgage, or even pay anything off the mortgage, it’s ludicrous.

One of the problems with higher price cars, is they require more finance, but I’ve pointed that out before. But new car finance is cheaper than used car finance, some even 0%.

TCO is important but it's even more important to know where your money is going. If you don't know the purchase price you know nothing, because the rest is subject to change. Don't forget insurance and repair costs either. I get that the TCO is more predictable if you're on PCP and changing vehicles every 2-3 years. But once again, that isn't real ownership in my book and that method is generally seen as the most expensive way to drive a car. Obviously you can speculate on depreciation levels, etc and calculate lowering the cost that way. But when it comes to the end of the deal you've got to repeat the process again and again and again. It's a never ending payment. Yes, everyone has running costs regardless, but I don't believe EVs in general mean running costs are so cheap that you can keep making a new purchase. That makes no sense.

As already stated, house prices are different and are much more of a necessity, that's why people take a mortgage out. They may need a certain size house, number of bedrooms or need to be in a particular area. Someone who spends £300k on a house in certain area can't get the same for £150k to achieve a reasonable standard of living for their requirements. Of course, there are many different scenarios, but houses and cars are two different things for me. Everybody needs a home, everybody doesn't need a car.

 

[Markburke]

Sadly this argument was obsolete before EVs were around due to pay at pump.

Just my experience living in Shropshire I haven’t seen a pay at pump round at all here and have lived here four years. Have stood in many a queue behind folk with baskets though. I have a cheapo old ICE currently as had to sell my EV when I lost my job, but I’ll 100% get another as soon as the second hand EV market expands. My point really is just that they are dead easy and convenient. It’s freezing cold where I live and in the morning the car was heated up and defrosted before I opened my front door, lovely. It all just makes common sense to me it’s so intuitive. And my old dad had a garage so I grew up as a petrol head

 

[Andy_W]

Interesting that the new electric i4 is only 10% more than a petrol 430i grand coupe, and the electric is 1 second quicker 0-60. 300mile range too.

That price gap is narrower than I thought

People would need to be nuts to buy a new 430 petrol, and they depreciate like a stone too. I bought one a few years back for 25k, which was 42k new, and a year old . They lose tons in the first year (or did pre covid), the sucker who I bought mine off must have lost half its value in a year when they weighed it in.

 

[Andy_W]

TCO is important but it's even more important to know where your money is going. If you don't know the purchase price you know nothing, because the rest is subject to change. Don't forget insurance and repair costs either. I get that the TCO is more predictable if you're on PCP and changing vehicles every 2-3 years. But once again, that isn't real ownership in my book and that method is generally seen as the most expensive way to drive a car. Obviously you can speculate on depreciation levels, etc and calculate lowering the cost that way. But when it comes to the end of the deal you've got to repeat the process again and again and again. It's a never ending payment. Yes, everyone has running costs regardless, but I don't believe EVs in general mean running costs are so cheap that you can keep making a new purchase. That makes no sense.

As already stated, house prices are different and are much more of a necessity, that's why people take a mortgage out. They may need a certain size house, number of bedrooms or need to be in a particular area. Someone who spends £300k on a house in certain area can't get the same for £150k to achieve a reasonable standard of living for their requirements. Of course, there are many different scenarios, but houses and cars are two different things for me. Everybody needs a home, everybody doesn't need a car.

Yes, your money is going on petrol, tax and maintenance, mine is going more on the car. I expect EV’s to win with war over ICE just like the car makers do.

I’m talking about new cars, EV’s largely win the battle now, which means they likely win in it in 3 years too, for new, and for 3 year old cars. Especially as we move ever closer to 2030. If you want to run an old car into the ground then fair enough, it will cost you a fortune in fuel. You could do the same with an old model 3 and bank the fuel/ tax savings etc. Your idea of “real ownership” is in your head, some others could think like that, if they wish. My thinking is what can I get for £100/ £300/ £500/ £1000 a month TCO. Difference horses for different courses.

If the EV’s second hand are a lot more expensive in 3 years, than ICE, it means they’ve held their value better, which proves me right for buyers now, and for TCO. If they depreciate the same % as ICE, I’m right as they’ve had cheaper TCO. Whether it’s right to buy a second hand EV that’s high price in 3 years will depend on what the expected situation is in 2028 etc. It might be the case there are some bargain ICE’s to run into the deck, which will make sense for those who want to do that.

If depreciation is less, fuel is less, tax is less, then you can drive a newer/ better car more often. If you’re happy in running an older car into the ground then fair enough, that’s not what my comparisons are based on. They’re based on people who spend £300 a month TCO+ in three years there will be more cars at lower levels, so it will be £200 plus etc. Obviously someone could put 150k on a cheaper EV and have super cheap fuel for 10 years, good TCO.

See with the house thing you’ve replied as I had hoped, you can’t compare a 150k 3 bed with a 300k 3 bed, so don’t claim the lower is the same. I’m on a car thread, everyone looking at a car thread likely has a car. The trick is comparing what you can get for the same TCO budget, it’s all that matters, that’s the cost, not the ticket price. Yes estimating depreciation for EV’s could be off, but I’d be less worried about this than an ICE car, when the manufacturers and buyers are moving in one direction.

 

[JustTheGent]

Yes, your money is going on petrol, tax and maintenance, mine is going more on the car. I expect EV’s to win with war over ICE just like the car makers do.

I’m talking about new cars, EV’s largely win the battle now, which means they likely win in it in 3 years too, for new, and for 3 year old cars. Especially as we move ever closer to 2030. If you want to run an old car into the ground then fair enough, it will cost you a fortune in fuel. You could do the same with an old model 3 and bank the fuel/ tax savings etc. Your idea of “real ownership” is in your head, some others could think like that, if they wish. My thinking is what can I get for £100/ £300/ £500/ £1000 a month TCO. Difference horses for different courses.

If the EV’s second hand are a lot more expensive in 3 years, than ICE, it means they’ve held their value better, which proves me right for buyers now, and for TCO. If they depreciate the same % as ICE, I’m right as they’ve had cheaper TCO. Whether it’s right to buy a second hand EV that’s high price in 3 years will depend on what the expected situation is in 2028 etc. It might be the case there are some bargain ICE’s to run into the deck, which will make sense for those who want to do that.

If depreciation is less, fuel is less, tax is less, then you can drive a newer/ better car more often. If you’re happy in running an older car into the ground then fair enough, that’s not what my comparisons are based on. They’re based on people who spend £300 a month TCO+ in three years there will be more cars at lower levels, so it will be £200 plus etc. Obviously someone could put 150k on a cheaper EV and have super cheap fuel for 10 years, good TCO.

See with the house thing you’ve replied as I had hoped, you can’t compare a 150k 3 bed with a 300k 3 bed, so don’t claim the lower is the same. I’m on a car thread, everyone looking at a car thread likely has a car. The trick is comparing what you can get for the same TCO budget, it’s all that matters, that’s the cost, not the ticket price. Yes estimating depreciation for EV’s could be off, but I’d be less worried about this than an ICE car, when the manufacturers and buyers are moving in one direction.

Yes, yours is going more on the car, but that's because you're paying a lot more than me.

My vehicle's engine and gearbox have a track record and are tried and tested for over a decade. They are generally regarded as bomb proof. Why would I swap for a model 3 that is unproven and will potentially have huge costs involved in fixing computers and replacing the main battery? Not to mention that I like my vehicle much better than any Tesla. Well used examples are not proven. Not doing that to save on a bit of fuel. The guy who did all the mileage in a Tesla had to change the main battery after around 50k miles. That's a potential £££££ cost. I wouldn't go near one with a bargepole.

Still don't think you can compare a car with a house. Two completely different things. If a property is unsuitable for the occupants it will affect their living standard and wellbeing. A house might be too small, far away from work/schools or in an area of social deprivation. This can greatly affect people's lives, especially if children are involved. Even having a garden can greatly improve people's lives and mental health. There's so many different factors at play. The same cannot be said of a car. A £100k car can't doing anything that mine can't, as needed for driving on the roads. If someone is buying a new car every couple of years, it's more like a status symbol, thrill or wanting the latest thing. It's not the same as a home, certainly not.

 

[Redwurzel]

My last 2 brand new cars have cost me around £850/year in depreciation or about £70/month. They are/were £150 a year to tax, £200 to insure. I spend about £1100 a year on fuel and £200 on servicing MOT. For that I drive 11,000 miles a year or about 23.5p/mile total cost of ownership over 8 years. I often drive 250 miles without filling up and don't look at the fuel gauge or worry about it. I have never spent much time filling up and there are around 10 petrol stations within 3 miles of me.

If I leased it would be around 29p/mile to own the same car, but the car would be changed once every 3 years instead of once every 8 years. Leasing/car finance is more expensive if a vehicle is kept 8 years and you are a private owner of supermini class car. I have ignored opportunity cost of tying up money for outright initial purchase which closes the cost the gap between purchase ands lease.

If I bought an electric car it would probably be around £28k (super mini class) - over 8 years I would lose £22k? in depreciation (88,000 miles) thats 25p/mile before insurance, servicing, and cost of electricity. My guess is around 8p/mile (£880 per year). Giving a total of 33p/mile against my historic 23.5p for petrol. The petrol will be higher for new car now because prices have risen for all new cars adding around another 5p per mile, so its 33p electric against 28.5p petrol for me at present.

I think it is highly likely the motoring taxation situation will radically change by 2030. Electric car owner will have to pay much more tax to compensate for lost tax on ICE cars. The common prediction is road pricing. This will also discourage vehicle usage and meet the green agenda. At present a ICE car pays around 10p/mile in tax, so it would be not a surprise if electric had to do the same.

Everyone has different scenarios I am just describing mine.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Interesting that the new electric i4 is only 10% more than a petrol 430i grand coupe, and the electric is 1 second quicker 0-60. 300mile range too.

That price gap is narrower than I thought

People would need to be nuts to buy a new 430 petrol, and they depreciate like a stone too. I bought one a few years back for 25k, which was 42k new, and a year old . They lose tons in the first year (or did pre covid), the sucker who I bought mine off must have lost half its value in a year when they weighed it in.

How much is an i4?

 

[SmallTown]

My vehicle's engine and gearbox have a track record and are tried and tested for over a decade. They are generally regarded as bomb proof. Why would I swap for a model 3 that is unproven and will potentially have huge costs involved in fixing computers and replacing the main battery? Not to mention that I like my vehicle much better than any Tesla. Well used examples are not proven. Not doing that to save on a bit of fuel. The guy who did all the mileage in a Tesla had to change the main battery after around 50k miles. That's a potential £££££ cost. I wouldn't go near one with a bargepole.

I was going to ignore you because you are getting so much wrong but there are some clear things you need to address here: How many moving parts are in your engine and gearbox? There is simply no way you can think that would be more reliable than electric powertrain. You know this. You also choose to ignore Andy comments about how long we have had electric motors and mine about how long we have had them in private vehicles. Why are you ignoring this? I don't mind a debate but you when you constantly ignore fact, it makes you simply look wrong.

Also, and this is crucial and you must know this is true, yet you bring it up here (I suspect because you think it back up your "EVs cost a fortune" lie). Tesla ARE NOT ALL EVs: Mercedes Benz, BMW/MINI, Kia, Hyundai, Ford, Peugot, Nissan, MG, Citroen, Fiat, Honda, Porsche, Audi, VW, Volvo / Polestar all make SUV. These are just the ones off the top of my head.

The length of time we have been using electric motors and the amount of manufacturers that make EV are diluting your argument so I suspect you'll continue to ignore these facts. I guess we'll have to keep reminding you in order to try and get you to debate properly