In praise of EV'S

You're right on the maths of the M3, I've had similar 200-250 mile range on other performance cars, if you put your foot down, you get more if you don't put your foot down, but still not great. It's also partially to do with weight, the added fuel is adding weight. They could put a 40 gallon tank in, but would hamper performance, and also cost £240 to fill up :LOL: They figure most people can get by on a 200-250 mile range, and they can.

I think people just don't understand TCO, or not in enough detail, but it's simple for me as I work with numbers and spreadsheets all day, every day. People also way overestimate how many long trips they go on, and then underestimate how many times they stop for a burger on those long trips.
Yeah these are the points I'm trying to push. The whole range thing just isn't any issue. People just think it is. When they break down their long journeys into frequency and amount of stops the usually make they'll quickly realise this "range anxiety" they've told to believe exists simply doesn't. It is why I get equal parts amused and frustrated when you get people who just want to cling on to their ICE for as long as possible and come up with ever more complicated scenarios to "prove" they are better. When you know these journeys either don't exist or are done once a year.

Also another thing just occurred to me: yes Tesla are expensive for EVs if you consider the poor build quality you get but how much more? Given they have cost parity with cars of similar performance and one of the things you are paying for is the largest and most reliable charging network in the world. It's another hidden benefit little talked about.
 
Yeah these are the points I'm trying to push. The whole range thing just isn't any issue. People just think it is. When they break down their long journeys into frequency and amount of stops the usually make they'll quickly realise this "range anxiety" they've told to believe exists simply doesn't. It is why I get equal parts amused and frustrated when you get people who just want to cling on to their ICE for as long as possible and come up with ever more complicated scenarios to "prove" they are better. When you know these journeys either don't exist or are done once a year.

Also another thing just occurred to me: yes Tesla are expensive for EVs if you consider the poor build quality you get but how much more? Given they have cost parity with cars of similar performance and one of the things you are paying for is the largest and most reliable charging network in the world. It's another hidden benefit little talked about.
They will get there, well they're going to be forced there, kicking and screaming :LOL:

I think it's also fear or the unknown, but it's not really an unknown, as much as what the weather outside is, it's quite simple to figure out if they just look at what trips they do in an "average" month, or just open the curtain. They could alleviate their own fears if they wanted to, but some don't so try and argue against it against, when they've not done it, and argue with people who do it every day.

People also are slow to adopt change, or embrace technology. Some cite it as untested tech, but batteries have been around 200 years, and are better now than they've ever been, and are soon to become much, much better. Same with electric motors, they've been around 150 years, and of course, are now better than ever.

The odd argument is that people argue against electric, but say it's because they're all for hydrogen, or waiting for hydrogen. But had hydrogen come first, they would be against that, in favour of electric :LOL: Hydrogen isn't coming anytime soon for cars (maybe for wagons), as it would need to replace fuel stations, and be tankered around. There is absolutely zero chance of running hydrogen pipes to fuel stations. The few hydrogen cars we have, use electric motors too, and they're nowhere near as efficient. Also most of the hydrogen we get comes as a by product of fossil fuel extraction, which we're meant to be getting away from.

Hydrogen does have its benefit of fast fuelling, if the infrastructure and extraction problems were solved (we're nowhere near this), but by the time we get to that we will already be charging at 1000kW/H and have batteries 3-10x better. You'll get 300 mile range in 5 minutes, and there's zero need for more range than this, when charging is that fast. It effectively makes it a wasted investment, which is why the manufacturers are spending everything on BEV's not Hydrogen.
 
Yeah the hydrogen thing is weird to me for small vehicles. It's just so difficult to produce, store and so inefficient compared to battery electric.

I imagine hydrogen people fall into 2 camps: Those who are trying to defend the big oil companies. Producing hydrogen requires massive amounts of energy and currently is produced using fossil fuels. Also it can be commoditised in a way renewable electricity can't so it would behove big oil firms to push it so they can keep making their vast profits.

The second camp are the "it's the same as filling up an ICE" camp. I can kind of get that, it goes into your fear of the unknown thing. They want to "fill up" how they always did. Which is why it's important for us EV users to keep explaining how convenient the new model for refuelling is. The second problem with wanting it to be like filling up an ICE car is, well, it isn't. The infrastructure does'nt exist at all. I believe the only 2 working public hydrogen pumps in England are in Swindon. I don't think every ICE has to go to Swindon to fill up. Also I don't recall ever having to pressurise my fuel nozzle before filling up. Imagine getting a second hand "self maintained" hydrogen vehicle and expecting the extremely high pressure seal to be flawless. Refuelling would be terrifying!
 
Yeah the hydrogen thing is weird to me for small vehicles. It's just so difficult to produce, store and so inefficient compared to battery electric.

I imagine hydrogen people fall into 2 camps: Those who are trying to defend the big oil companies. Producing hydrogen requires massive amounts of energy and currently is produced using fossil fuels. Also it can be commoditised in a way renewable electricity can't so it would behove big oil firms to push it so they can keep making their vast profits.

The second camp are the "it's the same as filling up an ICE" camp. I can kind of get that, it goes into your fear of the unknown thing. They want to "fill up" how they always did. Which is why it's important for us EV users to keep explaining how convenient the new model for refuelling is. The second problem with wanting it to be like filling up an ICE car is, well, it isn't. The infrastructure does'nt exist at all. I believe the only 2 working public hydrogen pumps in England are in Swindon. I don't think every ICE has to go to Swindon to fill up. Also I don't recall ever having to pressurise my fuel nozzle before filling up. Imagine getting a second hand "self maintained" hydrogen vehicle and expecting the extremely high pressure seal to be flawless. Refuelling would be terrifying!
I think two of the Hydrogen plants blew up too. Don't get me wrong mind, it's a great fuel, but it is so hard to harness, store and use, I just don't see it coming mainstream for 30+ years, if at all for cars. I can see it being used for big HGV's though, but I've also got a funny feeling we will just end up keeping those as diesel for an extremely long time, and try and off-set that carbon elsewhere.

I think they even use Liquid Oxygen for rockets, that may be an option one day, but having "worked" with that stuff, it's bloody dangerous (albeit good fun to play with).
 
I think two of the Hydrogen plants blew up too. Don't get me wrong mind, it's a great fuel, but it is so hard to harness, store and use, I just don't see it coming mainstream for 30+ years, if at all for cars. I can see it being used for big HGV's though, but I've also got a funny feeling we will just end up keeping those as diesel for an extremely long time, and try and off-set that carbon elsewhere.

I think they even use Liquid Oxygen for rockets, that may be an option one day, but having "worked" with that stuff, it's bloody dangerous (albeit good fun to play with).
Oh yeah hydrogen absolutely has a place in the future. Especially for larger vehicles. We MUST get better at making it though. 0.82% of the worlds commercial hydrogen is green at the moment. That's not even close to being good enough.
 
We were considering a VW ID3. With the full deposit put down on PCP and taking it out over 4 years with a £8k final payment the instalments were around £430 a month. The wife does 30k a year so the savings on fuel would have been massive and overall we'd still be having £100 a month despite the higher monthly costs.

Range was not a problem, she commutes 60 miles each way. Just charge on an evening when home.

We occasionally travel to Kent but stop for 30 minutes anyway for food / toilet so that was never a concern.

What was the main concern though was the value of the car in 4 years time with 120k miles on it. It could well have been less than the final payment which would mean we'd lose a chuck of change and have to find another £8k to get a new one. 2 VW dealers tried to put us off PCP due to this.

Having thought about it long and hard, and no one having any idea what the car might be worth with those miles on it we have decided to go diesel for 2-3 years and then look at the ID3 again then. I was gutted!
Sorry I don't understand your post - if it's worth less than the final payment you hand it back. That's why it's a guaranteed future value (GFV).

That said I've not found any PCPs recently that are cheaper than the equivalent lease - why did you rule out leasing?
 
Sorry I don't understand your post - if it's worth less than the final payment you hand it back. That's why it's a guaranteed future value (GFV).

That said I've not found any PCPs recently that are cheaper than the equivalent lease - why did you rule out leasing?

Hand it back and lose our large deposit. You expect with PCP to have a bit of equity left at the end - I don't fancy paying all that up front and then not having any. But I'm no expert, the dealers warned us off it. I'm mates with the senior sales guy at my local VW and he said not to risk it.

Lease - too many miles.
 
I can't see how your mileage means a lease isn't viable but a PCP would have been without your concerns about equity at the end?
 
I can't see how your mileage means a lease isn't viable but a PCP would have been without your concerns about equity at the end?

I know you have the best of intentions but like I said, we were warned off the PCP by the dealer.

Lease - due to mileage the couple of quotes I got were expensive. Not as bad as I thought they would be but up there at £450+ a month.

The reason for our change of car is to save money. I've gone over many different permutations and cashing in on our equity in our current car and getting a slightly older Golf with better MPG seems to, on paper, save us between £200 - 250 a month. It's free money. We'lll look at it again in a couple of years and hopefully the EV route will make more sense to us then.

The ID3 would have saved us about £100 a month on the PCP route.
 
They don't, not when you factor in TCO, and compare like for like. The ticket price isn't the only price, far from it, it's about 1/10th of the equation. Yes they do cost more on the ticket price, but this largely gets off set as you get more back for it by a similar figure. Then the fuel is half the price at worst, there's no VED, servicing's cheaper, less "wear" parts etc.

The easiest comparison is on new cars of similar spec, harder to do on older cars as enough haven't filtered through yet, but they will over the coming years. The tech has increased a lot over the last 2-3 years, and there's a lot more choice, so when the cars out "now" filter down, it will make a big difference. My bet is they're going to hold their value better than ICE, they are already.
I always initially keep the purchase price separate from the running costs. Of course, you can add the two figures together, but knowing what a vehicle costs in itself is important. The reason being is that the purchase price is a figure set in stone, many of the running costs are variable and can change year on year, especially if you're keeping a vehicle long term. Because most EVs are not tried and tested over a lengthy period, it's almost impossible to predict what such a vehicle might cost in repairs under long term ownership. There can be astronomical costs involved if an EV battery fails. The same goes for all the technology; we know new technology in cars is prone to failing, especially as time passes. It's normally mastered over many, many years.

I think it's very important for people to know what they are paying for a vehicle. I don't like working things out by so much per month, I want to know what I'm paying for a vehicle, then I can do an estimate of the yearly running costs. Of course, if you're swapping vehicles regularly and committing to long term monthly payments on PCP, some of the running costs might not change as much. But this is generally the most expensive way of driving a vehicle. I'm talking for most people here, not people who are buying 100k cars with waiting lists that might not depreciate as much.

I've done the maths and the cost of swapping my vehicle for an EV are huge. But even if I was in the market for another vehicle, it would be a used petrol or diesel. An EV simply wouldn't make any sense to me.
 
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I know you have the best of intentions but like I said, we were warned off the PCP by the dealer.

Lease - due to mileage the couple of quotes I got were expensive. Not as bad as I thought they would be but up there at £450+ a month.

The reason for our change of car is to save money. I've gone over many different permutations and cashing in on our equity in our current car and getting a slightly older Golf with better MPG seems to, on paper, save us between £200 - 250 a month. It's free money. We'lll look at it again in a couple of years and hopefully the EV route will make more sense to us then.

The ID3 would have saved us about £100 a month on the PCP route.
Obviously you do your figures and you make the choice that's best for you - it's more difficult at present as you can't easily move to a company like Octopus and take advantage of overnight charging at 5p per kw - I suppose I was fortunate as I moved just before the energy crisis.

Just by the by but your wife's commute is double mine and I'm saving money even with a much higher lease payment than I previously made on my diesel car - the cheap electricity helps a lot however!
 
The first lie was that I always recommend an EV. That was a personal lie and, as such, the one I'm upset about. EV do not cost a fortune compared to the equivalent ICE. I would say if both cars are under £35000 there is a parity in price with the grant.
You've probably posted a hundred times on these threads. Just about all of those posts involve praising EVs whilst dismissing other people's concerns about them. That's why you always recommend an EV.
 
You've probably posted a hundred times on these threads. Just about all of those posts involve praising EVs whilst dismissing other people's concerns about them. That's why you always recommend an EV.
I could say the exact opposite applies to you. The difference being you stretch the truth, such as comparing cars that are entirely unalike to "prove" your point or, and this is my favourite, simply ignoring cost of ownership when it comes to EV buying so you can "win" the argument. \it's top internet trolling that, just ignoring half the argument because that half doesn't suit you.

I'll also repeat this because you've repeated the lie: Saying "you always recommend an EV" is a lie. Outright lie and provable by this very thread. I've called you out on it a couple of times now but instead of apologising, you've actually decided to repeat the lie.
 
I always initially keep the purchase price separate from the running costs. Of course, you can add the two figures together, but knowing what a vehicle costs in itself is important. The reason being is that the purchase price is a figure set in stone, many of the running costs are variable and can change year on year, especially if you're keeping a vehicle long term. Because most EVs are not tried and tested over a lengthy period, it's almost impossible to predict what such a vehicle might cost in repairs under long term ownership. There can be astronomical costs involved if an EV battery fails. The same goes for all the technology; we know new technology in cars is prone to failing, especially as time passes. It's normally mastered over many, many years.

I think it's very important for people to know what they are paying for a vehicle. I don't like working things out by so much per month, I want to know what I'm paying for a vehicle, then I can do an estimate of the yearly running costs. Of course, if you're swapping vehicles regularly and committing to long term monthly payments on PCP, some of the running costs might not change as much. But this is generally the most expensive way of driving a vehicle. I'm talking for most people here, not people who are buying 100k cars with waiting lists that might not depreciate as much.

I've done the maths and the cost of swapping my vehicle for an EV are huge. But even if I was in the market for another vehicle, it would be a used petrol or diesel. An EV simply wouldn't make any sense to me.

The running costs are important, extremely important when electric is 1/4 the price of fuel, and VED is free. But you can estimate, and have margins of error/ or change of use estimates which is what I do.

Most batteries are covered for 7/8 years, or 100,000 miles, along with the motor, not many engines are covered for that, certainly not high performance ones. There's less to "go wrong" in an electric motor, as they're effectively brushless, and brushless high power motors have been used for decades. The batteries are proven tech, with a proven lifecycle.

Obv an electric car isn't paying for a fan belt, clutch, brakes, pads etc. Who would buy a 70k mile car and not be worried about any of those going, and of course going out of warranty? How much is a new 400BHP engine from BMW, Porsche, Merc etc including labour? 20k+?

I fully expect ICE vehicles to drop like a stone once EV's get to half the market. Diesels will sink first, and 2022 will be the first year electrics out sell diesels.
There will be a clamour of people coming round to the idea of EV's and then to sell diesels, then petrol's etc. Classic cars and one-offs might escape, but 95% of ICE cars are not in that category.

I've got and expensive EV, and getting an even more expensive one, but the model works the same for a 30k or 40k one and other numbers, it just scales down.

Different on used markets, as there's not much choice in used EV's from BMW, Audi, Merc, VW etc, but give it a few years and they will filter down.

Most of my comparisons are on new, like for like cars. That argument is already won by EV's, which will mean it's won in 3 years when they trickle down. There will be a big ICE sell off from 2025-2030 I expect, so you've got a good few years of relatively safe ICE motoring before then.
 
You've probably posted a hundred times on these threads. Just about all of those posts involve praising EVs whilst dismissing other people's concerns about them. That's why you always recommend an EV.
I expect he's had both to be fair, like I have. It's more an account of actual reality, than praise that I see him posting.

It's not dismissing concerns, not from me anyway, I'm just trying to explain how most are no issue, to most people.

There will be outliers of course, like some guy who might want to drive a 5 year old car, and drive to Bristol and back without stopping, but there's not many doing that. Same if someone want's to tow a digger around, I probably wouldn't advise that with an EV.
 
Obviously you do your figures and you make the choice that's best for you - it's more difficult at present as you can't easily move to a company like Octopus and take advantage of overnight charging at 5p per kw - I suppose I was fortunate as I moved just before the energy crisis.

Just by the by but your wife's commute is double mine and I'm saving money even with a much higher lease payment than I previously made on my diesel car - the cheap electricity helps a lot however!
I wonder if that tarriff will bust them?

There will be other tarrifs like that come back mind, once the energy market sorts itself out, albeit I bet they will have clauses add in the future, where they can't be expected to sell at a loss.
 
I can't wait for petrol to go out of fashion. My rotary will only go up in value.

I am an edge case, of course.
 
I can't wait for petrol to go out of fashion. My rotary will only go up in value.

I am an edge case, of course.
That might hold value, or even go up, if you can keep the miles off it?

Hopefully they don't use the same turbo's as the RX-7 £££££
 
I wonder if that tarriff will bust them?

There will be other tarrifs like that come back mind, once the energy market sorts itself out, albeit I bet they will have clauses add in the future, where they can't be expected to sell at a loss.
Octopus are huge, if they go we're in serious trouble as a country. Also, as expensive as electricity is at present, there are still times where it's much cheaper - through the night being the obvious one.
 
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