In praise of EV'S

My last 2 brand new cars have cost me around £850/year in depreciation or about £70/month. They are/were £150 a year to tax, £200 to insure. I spend about £1100 a year on fuel and £200 on servicing MOT. For that I drive 11,000 miles a year or about 23.5p/mile total cost of ownership over 8 years. I often drive 250 miles without filling up and don't look at the fuel gauge or worry about it. I have never spent much time filling up and there are around 10 petrol stations within 3 miles of me.

If I leased it would be around 29p/mile to own the same car, but the car would be changed once every 3 years instead of once every 8 years. Leasing/car finance is more expensive if a vehicle is kept 8 years and you are a private owner of supermini class car. I have ignored opportunity cost of tying up money for outright initial purchase which closes the cost the gap between purchase ands lease.

If I bought an electric car it would probably be around £28k (super mini class) - over 8 years I would lose £22k? in depreciation (88,000 miles) thats 25p/mile before insurance, servicing, and cost of electricity. My guess is around 8p/mile (£880 per year). Giving a total of 33p/mile against my historic 23.5p for petrol. The petrol will be higher for new car now because prices have risen for all new cars adding around another 5p per mile, so its 33p electric against 28.5p petrol for me at present.

I think it is highly likely the motoring taxation situation will radically change by 2030. Electric car owner will have to pay much more tax to compensate for lost tax on ICE cars. The common prediction is road pricing. This will also discourage vehicle usage and meet the green agenda. At present a ICE car pays around 10p/mile in tax, so it would be not a surprise if electric had to do the same.

Everyone has different scenarios I am just describing mine.
How did you work out your depreciation figure? Also, how is this a counter EV argument? If I hadn't negotiated a huge discount my last ICE vehicle would have lost about £15000 in it's first year. I can guarantee my current EV hasn't lost that much
 
How did you work out your depreciation figure? Also, how is this a counter EV argument? If I hadn't negotiated a huge discount my last ICE vehicle would have lost about £15000 in it's first year. I can guarantee my current EV hasn't lost that much
You rent your EV so your exorbitant monthly payments are paying for the depreciation. Might as well buy a house closer to work and pay for a second mortgage, it would work out cheaper. I see you've failed to answer the question of how much you pay to lease....I wonder why 🤣
 
How much is an i4?
The i4 is 52k and the 430i is 46k.

I think that i4 is a good buy at that price, to me that's the "first" BMW EV with the modern tech, really good range (350 miles) and a car which there will be a lot of buyers for, come 3 years time. I don't like the grille on it mind, but most BMW's are going that way.

I think they should have done a 250 mile range one though, and think they probably will. Next to nobody needs a 350 mile range when it can charge at 200kW/h.

When they bring the 3 series EV out that will sell a lot, especially based on their even newer architecture.
 
The i4 is 52k and the 430i is 46k.

I think that i4 is a good buy at that price, to me that's the "first" BMW EV with the modern tech, really good range (350 miles) and a car which there will be a lot of buyers for, come 3 years time. I don't like the grille on it mind, but most BMW's are going that way.

I think they should have done a 250 mile range one though, and think they probably will. Next to nobody needs a 350 mile range when it can charge at 200kW/h.

When they bring the 3 series EV out that will sell a lot, especially based on their even newer architecture.
Yeah I think they have to make these crazy long range cars because of the insidious "range anxiety" lie that still persists. Once EV become more commonplace and people realise how to charge them I'm charge range will come down which of course will lead to better economy and faster charging due to smaller capacity and lighter batteries.
 
Yes, yours is going more on the car, but that's because you're paying a lot more than me.

My vehicle's engine and gearbox have a track record and are tried and tested for over a decade. They are generally regarded as bomb proof. Why would I swap for a model 3 that is unproven and will potentially have huge costs involved in fixing computers and replacing the main battery? Not to mention that I like my vehicle much better than any Tesla. Well used examples are not proven. Not doing that to save on a bit of fuel. The guy who did all the mileage in a Tesla had to change the main battery after around 50k miles. That's a potential £££££ cost. I wouldn't go near one with a bargepole.

Still don't think you can compare a car with a house. Two completely different things. If a property is unsuitable for the occupants it will affect their living standard and wellbeing. A house might be too small, far away from work/schools or in an area of social deprivation. This can greatly affect people's lives, especially if children are involved. Even having a garden can greatly improve people's lives and mental health. There's so many different factors at play. The same cannot be said of a car. A £100k car can't doing anything that mine can't, as needed for driving on the roads. If someone is buying a new car every couple of years, it's more like a status symbol, thrill or wanting the latest thing. It's not the same as a home, certainly not.
I'll get a lot more back too, and it's new, got all the tech, the fuel is 1/4 the price of the equivalent, I don't have to bother with fuel stations (99% of the time), don't pay any tax, it's fast, it will be in demand when I decide to sell. The company tax breaks/ benefits are massive too, but I don't even need to factor that in comparing with an ICE, as it murders a comparable ICE.

Like I keep saying though, try and find me an ICE equivalent, for the same spec, age, power, warranty and TCO?

Compare all you like with an old car, but you're not comparing "eggs with eggs".

You think your engine and gearbox will last another decade? Is it in warranty for the next 100,000 miles or 8 years? Maybe if it breaks you can tell them it was tried and tested, and get a free replacement?

A "bit" on fuel? You mean 3/4 the cost on fuel? Never mind the tax, discs, pads etc.

I don't have a Tesla, ST can fill you in on those, they've been making EV's for about 13 years though, and are now the most valuable car company in the world, I guess they know what they're doing. The model 3 has an 8 year 100k mile warranty, the S and X 8 years/ 150k. I've never had anything like that on any VW, BMW, Audi, Merc, Porsche etc. I expect that carries over to whoever gets it at 3 years, with 40k miles on it.

A house can and does, and those things are far more important, which is why people should probably spend 5-10x more on their house than their car. I'm not saying someone should get a 100k house and a 100k car. I'm using your point that if you pay less, you get less, which you've confirmed, cheers.
People rely on their cars to pay for their house.

If people can afford £200 TCO, they can spend £200 TCO, or £500, or £1000 or £2000. What you get for each of those brackets is what I'm on about. Comparing someone having £1000 to spend and £200 to spend is two completely different arguments, I'd never advise someone with a £500 TCO budget to spend £1,000 TCO, it would be ludicrous. Like is someone with 3 kids spending 200k on a house with a garden or 1m on a bigger house with a garden, different budgets get you different things. Same applies to shoes, watches, phones, anything. You can always buy something at a lesser TCO budget, but you're going to be getting less for that. The more you go up the budget range the more you pay a premium on your return, it's the law or diminishing marginal returns.
 
The i4 is 52k and the 430i is 46k.

I think that i4 is a good buy at that price, to me that's the "first" BMW EV with the modern tech, really good range (350 miles) and a car which there will be a lot of buyers for, come 3 years time. I don't like the grille on it mind, but most BMW's are going that way.

I think they should have done a 250 mile range one though, and think they probably will. Next to nobody needs a 350 mile range when it can charge at 200kW/h.

When they bring the 3 series EV out that will sell a lot, especially based on their even newer architecture.

An i3 (if that's what it would be called) sub £35k would sell LOTS - we'd probably get one! :cool:
 
An i3 (if that's what it would be called) sub £35k would sell LOTS - we'd probably get one! :cool:
Yeah they’ve kind of painted themselves into a corner here really. The current i3 is a bizarre and pricey short range city car and nothing at all like the 3 series
 
My last 2 brand new cars have cost me around £850/year in depreciation or about £70/month. They are/were £150 a year to tax, £200 to insure. I spend about £1100 a year on fuel and £200 on servicing MOT. For that I drive 11,000 miles a year or about 23.5p/mile total cost of ownership over 8 years. I often drive 250 miles without filling up and don't look at the fuel gauge or worry about it. I have never spent much time filling up and there are around 10 petrol stations within 3 miles of me.

If I leased it would be around 29p/mile to own the same car, but the car would be changed once every 3 years instead of once every 8 years. Leasing/car finance is more expensive if a vehicle is kept 8 years and you are a private owner of supermini class car. I have ignored opportunity cost of tying up money for outright initial purchase which closes the cost the gap between purchase ands lease.

If I bought an electric car it would probably be around £28k (super mini class) - over 8 years I would lose £22k? in depreciation (88,000 miles) thats 25p/mile before insurance, servicing, and cost of electricity. My guess is around 8p/mile (£880 per year). Giving a total of 33p/mile against my historic 23.5p for petrol. The petrol will be higher for new car now because prices have risen for all new cars adding around another 5p per mile, so its 33p electric against 28.5p petrol for me at present.

I think it is highly likely the motoring taxation situation will radically change by 2030. Electric car owner will have to pay much more tax to compensate for lost tax on ICE cars. The common prediction is road pricing. This will also discourage vehicle usage and meet the green agenda. At present a ICE car pays around 10p/mile in tax, so it would be not a surprise if electric had to do the same.

Everyone has different scenarios I am just describing mine.
What car did you buy? Losing £850 a month depreciation over 8 years is around £7,000 in total, you've done well there!
What does that car cost now? Assuming you bought that 8 years ago?
You're getting around 70mpg, and have been for 8 years?

But to compare a mini, like for like:

An EV cooper S mini is 26k, the ICE equivalent is around 22k. I would expect the EV to depreciate less than the ICE, but even if they both lost 15k in 8 years, that's already doubled your depreciation figure of £850 a year.

Then compare the fuel, a Mini ICE is doing what 50 mpg? Say 11000 miles is 1000 litres, that's £1,500 fuel
The Mini EV is around 4miles per KW, so say 2750kW at what 18p a KW, £500 in electric
Tax on a Mini ICE? £200? going up?
Tax on a Mini EV? £0
Mini ICE warranty? 4 years 50k miles
Mini EV warranty? 8 years 100k miles

Discs/ pads/ clutch/ fan belt etc, none of those are covered by warranty and I can see an EV needing discs or pads done in that timeframe, due to regen.

I wouldn't advocate getting a lease for a car that is not expected to depreciate much, or where you can get a good finance deal. A lease might be a good idea for an ICE, but I doubt I would go down that route for an EV, as you're probably giving equity away.
 
Yeah they’ve kind of painted themselves into a corner here really. The current i3 is a bizarre and pricey short range city car and nothing at all like the 3 series
Yeah I've no idea why they called that an i3, as it's clearly not a 3 series in shape or style, it's probably smaller than a 1 series. They're also 8 years old so based on old tech/ architecture.

There's better options around for that size/ class of car.
 
Yeah I think they have to make these crazy long range cars because of the insidious "range anxiety" lie that still persists. Once EV become more commonplace and people realise how to charge them I'm charge range will come down which of course will lead to better economy and faster charging due to smaller capacity and lighter batteries.
Yeah I expect there's quite a lot of people who think they need that, whereas in reality they don't unless they're doing massive round trips every day without stopping, which is about 0.1% of people. You would need to do about a 100k miles a year to need that range :LOL:

People will take the extra range if given to them though, it's a good battery for that price bracket and spec of car. I think that mileage/ spec is aimed at company car drivers for now and to convince some of the range, there will be one 5-10k less with 250 mile range soon, I think. That will be a good buy too.

200kW charging means is could fully charge in like 25 minutes too, so that's a 600-700 miles worth of driving, with a 25 minute stop.
 
Yeah I've no idea why they called that an i3, as it's clearly not a 3 series in shape or style, it's probably smaller than a 1 series. They're also 8 years old so based on old tech/ architecture.

There's better options around for that size/ class of car.
Yeah. I kind of like it, it’s a really quirky design but it’s a bizarre anachronism. Tiny little city car run around but carbon fibre body making it ridiculously expensive to both buy and repair which is the opposite of what a city car should be. As you say, old tech too!

Give me a Zoe any day, or from the SME maker as the i3 an eMini. Actually if it was me buying a city car it’s certainly by a Honda e
 
Yeah. I kind of like it, it’s a really quirky design but it’s a bizarre anachronism. Tiny little city car run around but carbon fibre body making it ridiculously expensive to both buy and repair which is the opposite of what a city car should be. As you say, old tech too!

Give me a Zoe any day, or from the SME maker as the i3 an eMini. Actually if it was me buying a city car it’s certainly by a Honda e
The Honda e is quite cool!

I know two people who have the ID3, they both love them, one lad negotiated 5k less than the other for the exact same car :LOL:
 
Regarding affordability (apologies if i've missed some valid points as i haven't read the whole thread) there's some like for like comparisons discussed on here eg Mini combustion engine vs ICE etc. Isn't the real issue the filter down to those who buy a 2nd hand family car for under 10k or 15k or whatever? It's going to take a long time until that sort of mass market is going to be available i would think?
 
Regarding affordability (apologies if i've missed some valid points as i haven't read the whole thread) there's some like for like comparisons discussed on here eg Mini combustion engine vs ICE etc. Isn't the real issue the filter down to those who buy a 2nd hand family car for under 10k or 15k or whatever? It's going to take a long time until that sort of mass market is going to be available i would think?
It’s already there to some extent, Zoe’s and leaf’s can be had for much under this. The issue is variety as the range of EV only really blossomed a couple of years ago. I can’t imagine it’s too long before it catches up. There are already tonnes of second hand teslas around
 
It’s already there to some extent, Zoe’s and leaf’s can be had for much under this. The issue is variety as the range of EV only really blossomed a couple of years ago. I can’t imagine it’s too long before it catches up. There are already tonnes of second hand teslas around
Yeah well that's the issue, the choice really. i'm not sure there's much of an option there for someone currently driving his family around in his old Mondeo or such like.
Everyone has different requirements due to family age/size, interests etc so the market really needs that choice trickling down the price ranges.
I can see us taking the plunge soon on a smaller vehicle for day to day commuting, but taking a little longer to go EV for our family car
 
Regarding affordability (apologies if i've missed some valid points as i haven't read the whole thread) there's some like for like comparisons discussed on here eg Mini combustion engine vs ICE etc. Isn't the real issue the filter down to those who buy a 2nd hand family car for under 10k or 15k or whatever? It's going to take a long time until that sort of mass market is going to be available i would think?
Yep, correct. It will take time for that to filter down, and we need that to filter down.

But with the fuel/ tax/ maintenance savings the TCO of a 25k EV could probably be similar to that of a 15k ICE.
They could be comparable on cost, but you would be getting a better/newer car with the ICE. I've not done a price comparison on that, as it's hard to find a suitable comparison, and it's not really eggs for eggs.

It's hard to compare a 3 year old ICE BMW which has depreciated a chunk, with a 3 year old BMW EV of similar spec, as they've not filtered down yet.

There's used Tesla options but they're a different car to BMW altogether, better tech, faster for the same cost, much cheaper to run, but probably less "well built".

Like ST say's there's some options like leaf's, but I can't imagine many BMW 3 series drivers are going to want to get a leaf, which is fair enough, I wouldn't either.

Will be different once the ID3, Elec Mini etc filters down, along with some others, and when the big German brands bring EV's out for their 1 series and 3 series or equivalents, and they filter down. Lots more options on new cars, or brackets where people are happy with £300-1000 a month TCO. The carmakers have clearly targeted their main investments on their mid-high end range cars for the early adopters.
 
Yeah well that's the issue, the choice really. i'm not sure there's much of an option there for someone currently driving his family around in his old Mondeo or such like.
Everyone has different requirements due to family age/size, interests etc so the market really needs that choice trickling down the price ranges.
I can see us taking the plunge soon on a smaller vehicle for day to day commuting, but taking a little longer to go EV for our family car
Yeah that makes sense. The mid sized EVs haven’t really hit the market in big numbers yet. Except the Model 3 Tesla
 
What car did you buy? Losing £850 a month depreciation over 8 years is around £7,000 in total, you've done well there!
What does that car cost now? Assuming you bought that 8 years ago?
You're getting around 70mpg, and have been for 8 years?

But to compare a mini, like for like:

An EV cooper S mini is 26k, the ICE equivalent is around 22k. I would expect the EV to depreciate less than the ICE, but even if they both lost 15k in 8 years, that's already doubled your depreciation figure of £850 a year.

Then compare the fuel, a Mini ICE is doing what 50 mpg? Say 11000 miles is 1000 litres, that's £1,500 fuel
The Mini EV is around 4miles per KW, so say 2750kW at what 18p a KW, £500 in electric
Tax on a Mini ICE? £200? going up?
Tax on a Mini EV? £0
Mini ICE warranty? 4 years 50k miles
Mini EV warranty? 8 years 100k miles

Discs/ pads/ clutch/ fan belt etc, none of those are covered by warranty and I can see an EV needing discs or pads done in that timeframe, due to regen.

I wouldn't advocate getting a lease for a car that is not expected to depreciate much, or where you can get a good finance deal. A lease might be a good idea for an ICE, but I doubt I would go down that route for an EV, as you're probably giving equity away.
Andy - I paid £9k for a Seat Ibiza not £26k (Mini). It gets 11 miles per litre about 50 MPG. My figures are historic over the last 8 years, price of unleaded has varied from £1.05 to £1.43 /litre that I paid. I also get some fuel discount vouchers. A dealer offered me £2800 in Summer for my car but I read that second hand prices are still rising. The £9k minus £2800 is £6200 depreciation over nearly 8 years - in fact the depreciation I underestimated as its more like £800 per year or £67/month, but petrol costs may be slightly higher that I wrote originally. I use a car to primarily to get from A to B in reasonable comfort, I am not too fussed about image or having performance that can't be used legally. I can do the 250 mile drive to Teesside in around 4.5 hours if I don't stop and avoid peak times. (200 miles motorway/ dual carriageway, 50 miles country roads). It would be nice to be green, but that really means not driving at all and relying on public transport/taxis.

Small Town - Electric might be a better deal for some drivers. Its difficult possibly to summarise for everyone. I just wanted to list the detail for me as I know my costs (roughly). My guess is that without paying a deposit it costs (all costs) at least £400?/month to run a £31k electric car say VW id3 (super mini class - I have just gone through a on screen quote for that figure form VW's website). This would up my motoring costs I do. I am not trying to score points. I do read this thread because I am interested in the comparisons and then relating back to my and family requirements. A lot of others must be doing the same.
 
Andy - I paid £9k for a Seat Ibiza not £26k (Mini). It gets 11 miles per litre about 50 MPG. My figures are historic over the last 8 years, price of unleaded has varied from £1.05 to £1.43 /litre that I paid. I also get some fuel discount vouchers. A dealer offered me £2800 in Summer for my car but I read that second hand prices are still rising. The £9k minus £2800 is £6200 depreciation over nearly 8 years - in fact the depreciation I underestimated as its more like £800 per year or £67/month, but petrol costs may be slightly higher that I wrote originally. I use a car to primarily to get from A to B in reasonable comfort, I am not too fussed about image or having performance that can't be used legally. I can do the 250 mile drive to Teesside in around 4.5 hours if I don't stop and avoid peak times. (200 miles motorway/ dual carriageway, 50 miles country roads). It would be nice to be green, but that really means not driving at all and relying on public transport/taxis.

Small Town - Electric might be a better deal for some drivers. Its difficult possibly to summarise for everyone. I just wanted to list the detail for me as I know my costs (roughly). My guess is that without paying a deposit it costs (all costs) at least £400?/month to run a £31k electric car say VW id3 (super mini class - I have just gone through a on screen quote for that figure form VW's website). This would up my motoring costs I do. I am not trying to score points. I do read this thread because I am interested in the comparisons and then relating back to my and family requirements. A lot of others must be doing the same.
I think this is the constant struggle these of us who know how good EV are are having. Both you and mappy are going into detailed breakdowns of your driving costs but always comparing a cheap ICE car with an expensive EV. It’s not a reasonable comparison at all. My bike is significantly cheaper than my EV and with cheaper running costs so why don’t I seek the EV.
Just be honest. Compare a 9k seat Ibiza with a 9k second hand Renault Zoe and calculate the costs. Show which is cheaper
 
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