In praise of EV'S

[S7DiscoDown]

Trying to workout the daily EV facts and figures on here. I some serious overload of information.

 

[Smogonthethames]

Trying to workout the daily EV facts and figures on here. I some serious overload of information.

View attachment 28978

My 18 year old son, and all his mates, are busy buying their first £3k motors (£300 back in my day)!!. Will be interesting to see how EVs break into that market!! Buying EVs at the moment, is like buying your first PC in the early 90s.....they will soon be overpriced comical pieces of ****. However, we still need the test pilot clowns

 

[MolteniArcore]

With the likes of the USA, China, Russia and India pumping Millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. Do you think Mr Boring Bastaard driving his Teslar is going to help one jot. Give me my BMW X4 3.5 all drive every day.

Oh dear, we’ve caught a whopper

 

[SmallTown]

With the likes of the USA, China, Russia and India pumping Millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. Do you think Mr Boring Bastaard driving his Teslar is going to help one jot. Give me my BMW X4 3.5 all drive every day.

So not only do you like old, polluting and overly complicated vehicles. You want them to be ugly too.

Silly post but I think you know that

 

[SmallTown]

Andy - remember my stated primary concern is to be get from A to B, reliably and in a reasonable time at a economical cost. A brand new Polo does that for £17k and will last at least 15 years. Possibly an electric VW id3 (which is second smallest VW and secondest cheapest electric VW) gives a driver some extras, but I am not interested in those extras for the £13k extra cost, so to me the id3 and Polo Match are the same. If I used new petrol SEAT or Skoda it would be a bit cheaper than VW (same engines) but I would be accused of not comparing like with like. New Petrol VW group cars have lots of extras too btw. Agreed the price of new cars has increased in the last 8 years, my guess is by around 60% well above ordinary inflation.

I appreciate your and ST's information, but sorry no one has shown to me an electric car is cheaper for me despite its current special low tax treatment. I will look to switch when it is.

At least you admit you're not comparing like for like. The ID.3 is not only a newer car but it's a bigger car. It's just not in the same class as the polo. Try comparing like for like such as a Peugeot e208 9r a Renault zoe? Or a corsa e

 

[Tom_Boro]

So not only do you like old, polluting and overly complicated vehicles. You want them to be ugly too.

Silly post but I think you know that

They look a lot better than the current offering of electric vehicles who are currently the elephant man of the motor world.

 

[SmallTown]

They look a lot better than the current offering of electric vehicles who are currently the elephant man of the motor world.

That's such a ludicrous comment and you know it. You've seen the massive range of EV available yet you lump them all in the same category. And use an ugly, overstayed and top heavy crossover with a ridiculous grill and pointless congealed blotches on it as an example of what in ICE vehicle can look like.

I think your comment is thought ignorance. I imagine you actually don't know how good the range of TVs is and have probably seen, I don't know, a Kona and based your incorrect opinion on a single vehicle. To make a statement that all EV are ugly, given the sheer depth and range of styles on offer, is just plain ignorant.

 

[SmallTown]

Just quote a quote for the Juke! The path to us becoming a double EV family has begun. The O/H wants a 64KWh e-niro. Like most of you she's also worried about range so wants one with a big battery which is fine I guess. The advantage of the e-niro is it's pretty much the antithesis of the Model 3. It's not trying to re invent the car, not trying to re write the rules of vehicle design. It's just a (actually quite old fashioned) plain old small car. No frills, just car stuff, it just happens to be electric.

I actually usually have a bee in my bonnet about ICE converts, because the packaging is different for an EV. A chassis designed for a huge and massively complicated drivetrain but not for carrying a lot of extra weight in't ideal, and I'd rather they were ground up designs but as far as converts go the e-niro is a decent, honest, simple car.

 

[A]

Well that's just brilliant news ST, I'm over the chuffing moon for you both, I'm sure the whole board is. You really deserve it, a double EV family at last, you must be so proud and the envy of your friends

 

[Andy_W]

That's the general consensus on both counts. I've done the maths and the cost of replacing my vehicle with a new EV are astronomical. And I believe my vehicle is actually better than any EV. I wouldn't get a used EV either as they are not tried and tested. Not that many vehicles stand the test of time. These EVs are a minefield with being reliant on expensive batteries and technology. They'll always end up going wrong, it's pretty much guaranteed.

1: It's not the general consensus, or if it is the general consensus is wrong, largely as most people haven't owned an EV, are terrible at maths. or don't have a clue about TCO.
I've proven about 10 examples of where like for like, for spec and age, EV's win, largely in newer cars. I've not seen one showing where ICE wins. I've seen you try and compare a 10k car which is 3-10 year old with a 40k car which is brand new, which is effectively irrelevant, as they're different budgets and levels.

2. Range anxiety is effectively a myth, which is realised after about two weeks of EV ownership. Fair enough if people drive 400 miles a day without stopping and they're comparing with a 10k ICE car with an old EV with 100 mile range, but nobody is suggesting to do that.

Still not buying it.

You're not really get a lot more back, you're spending a considerable amount of money each month. You probably can't really afford it, that's why you're doing it like that. Most people who pay for things monthly can't really afford them, that's why they pay monthly. My guess is if you had to pay 70k/80k/90k or whatever it is up front, you wouldn't play ball, it would be too much. So you trick your mind into thinking you can afford it. In essence, you create a liability for yourself to attain the items you want. You're not fooling me, kid - I've seen it all before.

The house to car thing doesn't make sense. They aren't connected for me. There's just no connection there. Homes are bought for all sorts of reasons and factors. Everyone needs a home and nearly everyone could do without a car. It's as simple as that. People buy cars mainly as status symbols, just look at the amount of SUVs on the road. They aren't needed. And my vehicle can do anything that a £100k or £250k vehicle can do, as for the purpose intended for UK roads.

You don't have to, nobody is forcing you to, but if you want to make comparisons, please try and keep the comparisons like for like.

Every car I buy (ticket price) is considerably less than my annual wage, and every car I buy or finance I could buy outright if I wished. Never mind that with TCO the EV effectively works out half the price of a comparable ICE.

Your maths are clearly awful though, or your ability to compare things which are "like for like". Actually, you may even be good at this though, which is why you divert to try and compare things which are not alike, other than being labelled "a car".

You can't dictate what peoples disposable incomes or budgets are. One person could spend 100k and that be 10% of their income, one person might spend 10k and that be one third of theirs. If someone has a £300 budget per month, then their budget is £300, they would be better with the 20% more expensive ticket price EV, due to fuel and depreciation savings. Feel free to try and pick apart my ID3 v Polo comparison above, I'd actively welcome it.

Assume somebody is not you, and not spending 10k and running something into the dirt, and they have a £300-500 TCO budget per month, not everyone thinks like you do. Most people set a budget and then want the most/ newest/ best that they can get for that budget.

Ok, forget the house, I reckon most people that have a car would not give it up. Why don't you give up your car?
Do you wear £10 shoes, £30 shoes or £100 shoes?
Do you buy 10p beans or Heinz?

 

[Andy_W]

This is the most ludicrous, entirely fact free FUD post I've seen so far. Everything yiu say is just ridiculous and based entirely on incorrect propaganda from makers of ICE vehicles trying to save their companies. Yiu should be embarrassed you've fallen for it enough to constantly repeat the lies. Despite someone patiently trying to educate you

I've given up on him now, I really CBA with his unalike "comparisons", or his assumptions of peoples budgets and how people should spend their money.

 

[Andy_W]

Andy - remember my stated primary concern is to be get from A to B, reliably and in a reasonable time at a economical cost. A brand new Polo does that for £17k and will last at least 15 years. Possibly an electric VW id3 (which is second smallest VW and secondest cheapest electric VW) gives a driver some extras, but I am not interested in those extras for the £13k extra cost, so to me the id3 and Polo Match are the same. If I used new petrol SEAT or Skoda it would be a bit cheaper than VW (same engines) but I would be accused of not comparing like with like. New Petrol VW group cars have lots of extras too btw. Agreed the price of new cars has increased in the last 8 years, my guess is by around 60% well above ordinary inflation.

I appreciate your and ST's information, but sorry no one has shown to me an electric car is cheaper for me despite its current special low tax treatment. I will look to switch when it is.

Yes, the 17k polo will, but it's not comparable to the ID3, which is many spec and performance levels above. You need a super basic, slow, 20k EV to compare with that 17k Polo and the shot fact of it is EV's haven't come down to that level yet, not for VW anyway.

I'll do a quick comparison on the 17k Polo with the ID3, and see how that works out, can only go 1 year back, as the ID3 is only one year old.

 

[SmallTown]

I've given up on him now, I really CBA with his unalike "comparisons", or his assumptions of peoples budgets and how people should spend their money.

Yeah it’s clear he’s just a lost cause. He tried to pretend to care with constant comparisons between a Dacia Sandero and lotus evija but that last post was just a pointless parroting of the known myths and mistruths that you’ve so successfully busted on this thread.

 

[Andy_W]

The cheapest USED 2020 ID3 is £33k on auto trader within 100 miles of Teesside, up 1k in a year
The cheapest 2020 Polo (1ltr, 65BHP, Manual) is 14k, so down 4k from 18k

That's a £5k difference in a year (and no I don't think that will be replicated every year, but it would take some clawing back).

The ID3 does about 200 miles for £8
The Polo does 50mpg, that 200 miles is > £25

The ID3 saves £75 a month there in fuel, based on 12k miles, even more based on more miles.
Then £150 tax a year for the polo etc

Say around 1k more for the Polo.

So the Polo is now down 6k total.

Say 1 yr finance at 5%, ID3 30k = 1.5k
Say 1 yr finance at 5%, Polo 18k = 1k

It doesn't work out quite like that mind, as the finance gets caught up faster on the ICE, as the payment is larger (offset by the fuel saving). But it's a very simple way of looking at it.

So, the Polo has clawed back about £500 a year in finance costs.

So, the Polo has cost 5.5k more than the ID3, in the first year, and then don't forget, the Polo is Manual, slower, worse tech, basic spec etc, which nobody would deny.

If they then both depreciate at the same rate from there, then ID3 wins considerably.
If the Polo claws that depreciation back, then it still loses out on fuel and tax cost.

 

[Andy_W]

My 18 year old son, and all his mates, are busy buying their first £3k motors (£300 back in my day)!!. Will be interesting to see how EVs break into that market!! Buying EVs at the moment, is like buying your first PC in the early 90s.....they will soon be overpriced comical pieces of ****. However, we still need the test pilot clowns

Will take 5 years plus, to get into that price bracket.

Hmm, I'm paying half the TCO for an EV compared to comparable age/ spec ICE, and then half again gets written off through company benefits. I don't feel much like a clown, more like I've got an absolute bargain.

The only reason I feel like a clown is because I've still got two ICE cars, albeit one is a track car, so won't be letting that go anytime soon.

 

[JustTheGent]

Look gents, I have no issues if someone wants an EV. They are not for me at the moment and I suspect they are not for a large % of people out there. There's all sorts of reasons why. The reason I've got involved in the debate is because I started a thread a few weeks ago stating that I'm not getting rid of my 2.5L Petrol. The thread was then jumped on by certain posters with a clear agenda of pushing EVs onto everybody else. A lot of the information these posters provide is clearly not accurate and is biased in favour of EVs. I'm not sure why they are so pro EV, but it's probably because they are tech obsessives who always want the latest gadget. I've seen many of those types come and go over the years. You see it with Apple products a lot but also just any sort of tech in general.

Discussing cars and value at the moment can be a sketchy thing as we're currently in a unique set of circumstances. There's a shortage of new cars which means used prices have risen dramatically and there's also long waiting lists and other crazy things going on. But one thing doesn't change, you need to know how much the vehicle is going to cost. Not how much you're going to pay per month - you need to know the purchase price - in total. You can then do a year by year estimate of running costs.

Whatever anyone says, buying a brand new car on PCP is just about always one of the most expensive ways to purchase a vehicle. It's a deal that favours the retailer - not the customer. That's why retailers like to negotiate a deal in terms of what you can afford per month, rather than the actual price of the vehicle. There's all sorts of tricks they play to get you to sign up to a monthly payment - this is an absolute fact. If you don't believe it, go and offer to pay cash up front and watch their faces drop. They want and need that monthly payment - that's where the profit is for them.

Back to EVs. It's very fair to compare new EVs to older used ICE examples as EVs are so expensive. A lot of these EVs look like traditional £10-12k vehicles but cost £35k and some. They are basic brands and they don't look that good. They cost a lot of money for what they are. In this case, new is certainly not better - used ICE is better. As long as you do your homework and buy well. There's so many problems with EVs and they might solve those problems in the next 10/20/30 years - who knows when? That's even if EVs are going to be dominant, they might well not be.

 

[SmallTown]

Look gents, I have no issues if someone wants an EV. They are not for me at the moment and I suspect they are not for a large % of people out there. There's all sorts of reasons why. The reason I've got involved in the debate is because I started a thread a few weeks ago stating that I'm not getting rid of my 2.5L Petrol. The thread was then jumped on by certain posters with a clear agenda of pushing EVs onto everybody else. A lot of the information these posters provide is clearly not accurate and is biased in favour of EVs. I'm not sure why they are so pro EV, but it's probably because they are tech obsessives who always want the latest gadget. I've seen many of those types come and go over the years. You see it with Apple products a lot but also just any sort of tech in general.

Discussing cars and value at the moment can be a sketchy thing as we're currently in a unique set of circumstances. There's a shortage of new cars which means used prices have risen dramatically and there's also long waiting lists and other crazy things going on. But one thing doesn't change, you need to know how much the vehicle is going to cost. Not how much you're going to pay per month - you need to know the purchase price - in total. You can then do a year by year estimate of running costs.

Whatever anyone says, buying a brand new car on PCP is just about always one of the most expensive ways to purchase a vehicle. It's a deal that favours the retailer - not the customer. That's why retailers like to negotiate a deal in terms of what you can afford per month, rather than the actual price of the vehicle. There's all sorts of tricks they play to get you to sign up to a monthly payment - this is an absolute fact. If you don't believe it, go and offer to pay cash up front and watch their faces drop. They want and need that monthly payment - that's where the profit is for them.

Back to EVs. It's very fair to compare new EVs to older used ICE examples as EVs are so expensive. A lot of these EVs look like traditional £10-12k vehicles but cost £35k and some. They are basic brands and they don't look that good. They cost a lot of money for what they are. In this case, new is certainly not better - used ICE is better. As long as you do your homework and buy well. There's so many problems with EVs and they might solve those problems in the next 10/20/30 years - who knows when? That's even if EVs are going to be dominant, they might well not be.

Of course it isn’t fair to compare an old tech ice car to a brand new EV. It’s actually quite ludicrous. I know it, you know it, and I know you know it. You just know that’s the only way you can mount a financial defence of ICE. And we both know that’s what you’re doing. Shame you have to use a ridiculous and incorrect argument to do it.
We’ve also all noticed you’ve thrown out a phrase such as “there are many problems with EVs” yet in the whole thread you haven’t mentioned one. Did you really think I’d let you get away with such a false statement?

 

[UTB 1953]

I live in a very small village in North Yorkshire. I'm a pensioner and do about 6000 miles a year. An EV car would be a perfect fit for me. The problem is they are too BORING.

 

[SmallTown]

I live in a very small village in North Yorkshire. I'm a pensioner and do about 6000 miles a year. An EV car would be a perfect fit for me. The problem is they are too BORING.

Yeah. I’d turn down saving a tonne of money just so I could have a car that goes “brmmmmmmm”

To be fair, that’s a more common sense defence of ICE than anyone else’s

 

[Andy_W]

Look gents, I have no issues if someone wants an EV. They are not for me at the moment and I suspect they are not for a large % of people out there. There's all sorts of reasons why. The reason I've got involved in the debate is because I started a thread a few weeks ago stating that I'm not getting rid of my 2.5L Petrol. The thread was then jumped on by certain posters with a clear agenda of pushing EVs onto everybody else. A lot of the information these posters provide is clearly not accurate and is biased in favour of EVs. I'm not sure why they are so pro EV, but it's probably because they are tech obsessives who always want the latest gadget. I've seen many of those types come and go over the years. You see it with Apple products a lot but also just any sort of tech in general.

Discussing cars and value at the moment can be a sketchy thing as we're currently in a unique set of circumstances. There's a shortage of new cars which means used prices have risen dramatically and there's also long waiting lists and other crazy things going on. But one thing doesn't change, you need to know how much the vehicle is going to cost. Not how much you're going to pay per month - you need to know the purchase price - in total. You can then do a year by year estimate of running costs.

Whatever anyone says, buying a brand new car on PCP is just about always one of the most expensive ways to purchase a vehicle. It's a deal that favours the retailer - not the customer. That's why retailers like to negotiate a deal in terms of what you can afford per month, rather than the actual price of the vehicle. There's all sorts of tricks they play to get you to sign up to a monthly payment - this is an absolute fact. If you don't believe it, go and offer to pay cash up front and watch their faces drop. They want and need that monthly payment - that's where the profit is for them.

Back to EVs. It's very fair to compare new EVs to older used ICE examples as EVs are so expensive. A lot of these EVs look like traditional £10-12k vehicles but cost £35k and some. They are basic brands and they don't look that good. They cost a lot of money for what they are. In this case, new is certainly not better - used ICE is better. As long as you do your homework and buy well. There's so many problems with EVs and they might solve those problems in the next 10/20/30 years - who knows when? That's even if EVs are going to be dominant, they might well not be.

No agenda from me, it’s just basic maths, and experience of running a fleet of vehicles, as part of my business. Personally I own twice as many ICE cars, as EV’s, not for long mind. I’ve owned about 20 ICE cars personally alone. As for the company, all our vans and HGV’s are staying as ICE as that makes the most sense now, we’ll be moving all cars to EV though, other than 4x4’s. Please explain my agenda?
What info/ examples are not accurate, feel free to debunk the Polo V ID3 posts above, you won’t though, as you can’t.

You’ve not owned an EV and are clearly biased against them, or you just like old, cheap cars, so why reply to posts looking at cars <3 year old, or on EV’s or even new cars in general?

Most people have a budget, either doing that monthly, yearly, or any timeframe. People have different budgets and different timeframes but the budget should include: Purchase price, sale price (estimate duration/ depreciation), finance, fuel price, insurance, VED, maintenance, tax benefits etc etc. The more detail, the better. You’re ignoring half the budget, and comparing different budgets or comparing different qualities of vehicle, making yourself look quite silly.

Everyone knows (or should know) garages make a lot of their money from finance, and can almost structure any deal to any monthly cost, to trick people, which is exactly why I keep mentioning TCO, and specific budgets/ 3 year costs or whatever. You keep comparing smaller budgets and older cars, with larger budgets and better/ newer cars, which are not like for like. You might like a 5-10 year old car, with old tech, that’s your choice. Most people would prefer a newer car, some can’t afford one, or have different priorities, which are all fair enough. You can’t dictate peoples budgets and priorities though, same as I can’t, but I can compare what people can get for each budget.

Your last paragraph was pure dog turd, the car market is moving on without you, as are the manufacturers.