In praise of EV'S

[Redwurzel]

ST - I want to be 100% fair and everyone else to be.

My Ibiza is worth £2800 not £9000.

So it would be £2800 against £9000 Renault Zoe (I assume a 8 year old 85k model to match the Seat)

Without research I would guess the Renault running costs are £800/year cheaper (lower energy cost and no tax), but that would take 7.75 years to recover higher finance and both cars would unlikely last that long if already 8 years old (85k plus miles).

That assumes the Renault can do around 160k miles without a new electric battery.

Looking at new against new - a VW Polo Petrol is £17k and VW electric equivalent 30k - source Carwow website and VW website. At £800/year running cost saving on the electric its about 15 years for an owner to get their money back. Possibly Andy is correct in that is more top end that the manufacturers are really interested in at present. However there are a lot of drivers who just want a basic super mini class vehicle. Andy quotes people paying £300/£1000 to finance an electric vehicle. On Teesside a family home can be rented for those figures. Many people don't want to spend say £500/month to use a vehicle.

 

[Andy_W]

Andy - I paid £9k for a Seat Ibiza not £26k (Mini). It gets 11 miles per litre about 50 MPG. My figures are historic over the last 8 years, price of unleaded has varied from £1.05 to £1.43 /litre that I paid. I also get some fuel discount vouchers. A dealer offered me £2800 in Summer for my car but I read that second hand prices are still rising. The £9k minus £2800 is £6200 depreciation over nearly 8 years - in fact the depreciation I underestimated as its more like £800 per year or £67/month, but petrol costs may be slightly higher that I wrote originally. I use a car to primarily to get from A to B in reasonable comfort, I am not too fussed about image or having performance that can't be used legally. I can do the 250 mile drive to Teesside in around 4.5 hours if I don't stop and avoid peak times. (200 miles motorway/ dual carriageway, 50 miles country roads). It would be nice to be green, but that really means not driving at all and relying on public transport/taxis.

Ah, I see, was that new back then? They're about double that now aren't they? Can't get much new for less than 15k now. Be careful factoring in the increased demand for used, that's not going to be standard (but could last a couple of years), but if you are using that, then you have to factor in that a new car is not going to depreciate as much as standard (for now). Some new cars are going up, and mines only lost about 5% in 1.5 years, from new which is incredible, I had factored in for a 30-50% loss over three years, and all scenarios in that 30-50% loss range worked out far cheaper than the ICE equivalent would, if they hadn't I probably wouldn't have done it. Although the company tax breaks made it a complete no brainer and effectively halved the cost of the vehicle TCO anyway.

I suppose the most accurate way is to forecast it based on the prices now. i.e. use the fuel and electric price now, or where it's going, not using £1 a litre for fuel or using 5p a kW for electric, as both of those will likely never exist again. I've always compared £1.40 to 15p/Kw, some get 5p but I never went on that tarriff. Obviously people can supply their own electric with solar but still expensive to get that, albeit costs coming down rapidly. People can't supply their own petrol etc. I can see duty on petrol going up, and inflation going up (outpacing any barrel reductions) and electric going back down a bit, as more an more renewables come on line.

The green thing doesn't even come into my consideration to be honest, although I'm not saying it shouldn't. But doing anything to be green would help, reducing 50% is good, but to 0% is impossible for practically anybody.

For me I just attribute a budget, be that £200, £500, £1000 and see what I can get for that.

Maybe try an calculate what new car you could get now, comparable to an EV, and where you think depreciation, fuel and tax costs are going. All looks very one sided to me, in favour of EV's (although some budgets have few options now).

I've got 1 EV out of 3 household cars, and we have 10 commercial vehicles which are a mix of petrol and diesel, so I'm not being biased. If anything I should be trying to shoot the EV down, but it's extremely difficult to for those spending £300 a month TCO, and that gets amplified the more you move up the price brackets.

We need more in the "run around" low cost range though, but they're coming, and when they do it will make things extremely difficult for ICE cars, especially with the government trying to phase/ force them out.

 

[SmallTown]

ST - I want to be 100% fair and everyone else to be.

My Ibiza is worth £2800 not £9000.

So it would be £2800 against £9000 Renault Zoe (I assume a 8 year old 85k model to match the Seat)

Without research I would guess the Renault running costs are £800/year cheaper (lower energy cost and no tax), but that would take 7.75 years to recover higher finance and both cars would unlikely last that long if already 8 years old (85k plus miles).

That assumes the Renault can do around 160k miles without a new electric battery.

Looking at new against new - a VW Polo Petrol is £17k and VW electric equivalent 30k - source Carwow website and VW website. At £800/year running cost saving on the electric its about 15 years for an owner to get their money back. Possibly Andy is correct in that is more top end that the manufacturers are really interested in at present. However there are a lot of drivers who just want a basic super mini class vehicle. Andy quotes people paying £300/£1000 to finance an electric vehicle. On Teesside a family home can be rented for those figures. Many people don't want to spend say £500/month to use a vehicle.

So you're still not comparing like for like then. FYI the motors on an EV will lost for significantly longer then the engine in an ICE car, significantly.

VW don't have an electric equivalent of the polo

 

[chickenrunner]

Blimey this thread has had some legs, so much so I haven't had chance to read it. I only have 2 comments about EVs, no idea if they've been mentioned previously ......................

1. They're flipping expensive
2. I'd be continually anxious about the range.

Cheers

 

[SmallTown]

Blimey this thread has had some legs, so much so I haven't had chance to read it. I only have 2 comments about EVs, no idea if they've been mentioned previously ......................

1. They're flipping expensive
2. I'd be continually anxious about the range.

Cheers

1. They aren't
2. You won't be

 

[Andy_W]

Looking at new against new - a VW Polo Petrol is £17k and VW electric equivalent 30k - source Carwow website and VW website. At £800/year running cost saving on the electric its about 15 years for an owner to get their money back. Possibly Andy is correct in that is more top end that the manufacturers are really interested in at present. However there are a lot of drivers who just want a basic super mini class vehicle. Andy quotes people paying £300/£1000 to finance an electric vehicle. On Teesside a family home can be rented for those figures. Many people don't want to spend say £500/month to use a vehicle.

I think the ID3 is closer to the Golf than the Polo, but a similar spec Polo to get close to the ID3 is probably north of 25k. The Polo GTI is 27k and doesn't have lot of what the ID3 does. The GTI is a bit quicker, but was the closest to the ID3 spec, I suppose a specced up (to match ID3) slower R-Line would be around 27k also. You ain't getting much car/ polo for 17k.

The £300 etc are TCO figures, the TCO is the only thing I care about to be honest, but a 33k EV car is doable on £300 a month TCO, a 27k Polo is not.

The cheapest USED ID3 is £33k on auto trader within 100 miles of Teesside, up 1-2k in a year
The cheapest 2020 Polo GTI is 21k within 100 miles, down 6k in a year

That's a £7k difference in a year. I don't expect that to stay the same but even half that is £300 a month less for the ID3.

The ID3 does about 200 miles for £8
The Polo does 40mpg, that 200 miles is > £30

The ID3 saves £100 a month there in fuel, based on 10k miles, even more based on more miles.
Then £150 tax a year for the polo etc

Effectively that ID3 has cost £50 a month for everything, to drive a 33k, brand new car. Obviously there's finance on top of that, probably around £100 a month in finance charges. So for £150 all in, you're in a 33k EV. If it depreciates 2k a year you're at £300 a month.

The Polo is, losing 6k depreciation, in that first year, £150 a month in fuel, so that's near 8k, and then add say £80 in finance, so now near 9k for the year, overall that's around £750 a month, about 5x more expensive.

Of course the depreciation won't stay at those rates, but the Polo is not catching that back up over 2/3/5 years. Overall I wouldn't be surprised if the Polo ended up twice the TCO over longer timeframes, even worse as we draw closer to 2030.

Even if the Polo depreciated only 10k in 3 years, that's £280 a month, plus finance, it's £350, then add fuel and it's £500 a month, for 3 years, madness.

 

[SmallTown]

I think the ID3 is closer to the Golf than the Polo, but a similar spec Polo to get close to the ID3 is probably north of 25k. The Polo GTI is 27k and doesn't have lot of what the ID3 does. The GTI is a bit quicker, but was the closest to the ID3 spec, I suppose a specced up (to match ID3) slower R-Line would be around 27k also. You ain't getting much car/ polo for 17k.

The £300 etc are TCO figures, the TCO is the only thing I care about to be honest, but a 33k EV car is doable on £300 a month TCO, a 27k Polo is not.

The cheapest USED ID3 is £33k on auto trader within 100 miles of Teesside, up 1-2k in a year
The cheapest 2020 Polo GTI is 21k within 100 miles, down 6k in a year

That's a £7k difference in a year. I don't expect that to stay the same but even half that is £300 a month less for the ID3.

The ID3 does about 200 miles for £8
The Polo does 40mpg, that 200 miles is > £30

The ID3 saves £100 a month there in fuel, based on 10k miles, even more based on more miles.
Then £150 tax a year for the polo etc

Effectively that ID3 has cost £50 a month for everything, to drive a 33k, brand new car. Obviously there's finance on top of that, probably around £100 a month in finance charges. So for £150 all in, you're in a 33k EV. If it depreciates 2k a year you're at £300 a month.

The Polo is, losing 6k depreciation, in that first year, £150 a month in fuel, so that's near 8k, and then add say £80 in finance, so now near 9k for the year, overall that's around £750 a month, about 5x more expensive.

Of course the depreciation won't stay at those rates, but the Polo is not catching that back up over 2/3/5 years. Overall I wouldn't be surprised if the Polo ended up twice the TCO over longer timeframes, even worse as we draw closer to 2030.

Even if the Polo depreciated only 10k in 3 years, that's £280 a month, plus finance, it's £350, then add fuel and it's £500 a month, for 3 years, madness.

Bare in mind red, that Andy is comparing an EV with a significantly smaller ICE here. So even though the odds have still been stacked against the EV in not comparing like for like it still works out cheaper.

Thanks for doing that @Andy_W even I wouldn't have thought being an EV would mean you can actually go up a level and still get a cheaper car.

 

[Andy_W]

Bare in mind red, that Andy is comparing an EV with a significantly smaller ICE here. So even though the odds have still been stacked against the EV in not comparing like for like it still works out cheaper.

Thanks for doing that @Andy_W even I wouldn't have thought being an EV would mean you can actually go up a level and still get a cheaper car.

Aye, even on like for like depreciation the EV always wins because of the fuel difference, but now it seemingly wins by a country mile on depreciation too, which massively offsets the increased finance charges for a car which costs 20% more to buy (ticket price).

Then they also win on car tax, company benefits etc.

For a car with 200 mile range the rest is a non argument, as you well know.

The trick with this is comparing like for like, not comparing a new EV with an old car, or a higher class EV with a lower class ICE. The same way you can't compare a higher class ICE to a lower class ICE, they're different things. A new M3 compared to a 5 year old 320D won't work either, so nobody compares them.

If people want to drive a 10 year old car into the dirt, then fair enough, but unfair to compare with 10 year old EV's as they've come on so much from EV's 10 years ago. A 10 year old ICE does not compare to a new EV, other than they're both cars, so that's a pointless comparison. Someone spending £1,000 on a Corsa is not likely to buy a new 430i for 45k or whatever they are, so they're never going to consider an ICE equivalent for 50k.

 

[SmallTown]

Aye, even on like for like depreciation the EV always wins because of the fuel difference, but now it seemingly wins by a country mile on depreciation too, which massively offsets the increased finance charges for a car which costs 20% more to buy (ticket price).

Then they also win on car tax, company benefits etc.

For a car with 200 mile range the rest is a non argument, as you well know.

The trick with this is comparing like for like, not comparing a new EV with an old car, or a higher class EV with a lower class ICE. The same way you can't compare a higher class ICE to a lower class ICE, they're different things. A new M3 compared to a 5 year old 320D won't work either, so nobody compares them.

If people want to drive a 10 year old car into the dirt, then fair enough, but unfair to compare with 10 year old EV's as they've come on so much from EV's 10 years ago. A 10 year old ICE does not compare to a new EV, other than they're both cars, so that's a pointless comparison. Someone spending £1,000 on a Corsa is not likely to buy a new 430i for 45k or whatever they are, so they're never going to consider an ICE equivalent for 50k.

Interestingly my car probably has the most ready made like for like comparison as the company that make the Model 3 LR Performance admits it is aimed squarely at the BMW M3. I know this is a possibly unique comparison but it is as close to like for like as you could get:

Lets have a look at various areas and see what comes out top:

Category	Winner
List price	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Top Speed	BMW M3
Power	BMW M3 (Just)
0-60	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Range	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Road Tax	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Fuel costs	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Congestion charge costs	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Cargo Volume	BMW M3
Warranty	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Deprecation	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Servicing costs	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Drivetrain	Tesla Model 3 Performance (selectable AWD, can be set to RWD or FWD if required)

Fairly interesting result.

 

[Andy_W]

Interestingly my car probably has the most ready made like for like comparison as the company that make the Model 3 LR Performance admits it is aimed squarely at the BMW M3. I know this is a possibly unique comparison but it is as close to like for like as you could get:

Lets have a look at various areas and see what comes out top:

Category	Winner
List price	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Top Speed	BMW M3
Power	BMW M3 (Just)
0-60	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Range	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Road Tax	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Fuel costs	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Congestion charge costs	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Cargo Volume	BMW M3
Warranty	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Deprecation	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Servicing costs	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Drivetrain	Tesla Model 3 Performance (selectable AWD, can be set to RWD or FWD if required)

Fairly interesting result.

See I think they're quite different cars, but not a million miles away. I see the M3 as like a track car, that can be used on the road, and the Tesla as a road car, that can be used on the track.

I've not been in either of the new ones, but I expect the quality of the materials of the M3 is nicer inside, but I bet my hat it has much worse inside/ driver tech. Most of the M3 price is going on the engine (like 20-30k more than a normal 3 series, plus 10k of other addons), but the model 3 performance beats that too. BMW interiors don't change much as you go up the range though, and tech/ dash has been boring for years.

It's funny that the Model 3 performance has more range, beats it around a track, as well as over a quarter mile

Interestingly you can get a 2 year old M3 and a 2019 model 3 performance for the same price, 47k so the M3 is losing more money, 10-15k more in that time. Around 7k a year or around £500 a month more.

Then on fuel costs the M3 will be 3-4x worse, and get nailed on tax too. There goes another £200-300 a month more.

Add all that up and it's overall costing more than twice as much for the M3, thought it might have been closer than that.

I expect the M3 might would be more fun around a track, and they sound/ look better. But I don't think that's worth 20k extra TCO over 2 years, to some it might be mind, that spec of car is quite niche.

It's probably a better comparison comparing the normal Model 3 to the 430i and i4, but the model 3 is a few years older. The only thing coming last in that comparison is the 430i mind, and I've had one of those (not latest model) and loved it (as a 1 year old car), I'd have been crying if I'd bought a new one and lost 17k/42k in the first year mind.

 

[SmallTown]

See I think they're quite different cars, but not a million miles away. I see the M3 as like a track car, that can be used on the road, and the Tesla as a road car, that can be used on the track.

I've not been in either of the new ones, but I expect the quality of the materials of the M3 is nicer inside, but I bet my hat it has much worse inside/ driver tech. Most of the M3 price is going on the engine (like 20-30k more than a normal 3 series, plus 10k of other addons), but the model 3 performance beats that too. BMW interiors don't change much as you go up the range though, and tech/ dash has been boring for years.

It's funny that the Model 3 performance has more range, beats it around a track, as well as over a quarter mile

Interestingly you can get a 2 year old M3 and a 2019 model 3 performance for the same price, 47k so the M3 is losing more money, 10-15k more in that time. Around 7k a year or around £500 a month more.

Then on fuel costs the M3 will be 3-4x worse, and get nailed on tax too. There goes another £200-300 a month more.

Add all that up and it's overall costing more than twice as much for the M3, thought it might have been closer than that.

I expect the M3 might would be more fun around a track, and they sound/ look better. But I don't think that's worth 20k extra TCO over 2 years, to some it might be mind, that spec of car is quite niche.

It's probably a better comparison comparing the normal Model 3 to the 430i and i4, but the model 3 is a few years older. The only thing coming last in that comparison is the 430i mind, and I've had one of those (not latest model) and loved it (as a 1 year old car), I'd have been crying if I'd bought a new one and lost 17k/42k in the first year mind.

Yeah the fact the Tesla wins on range has really tickled me! I imagine the M3 will be more fun (if slower) around a track but I don't think it's worth paying that much extra for it.

 

[JustTheGent]

Blimey this thread has had some legs, so much so I haven't had chance to read it. I only have 2 comments about EVs, no idea if they've been mentioned previously ......................

1. They're flipping expensive
2. I'd be continually anxious about the range.

Cheers

Take note gents

That's the general consensus on both counts. I've done the maths and the cost of replacing my vehicle with a new EV are astronomical. And I believe my vehicle is actually better than any EV. I wouldn't get a used EV either as they are not tried and tested. Not that many vehicles stand the test of time. These EVs are a minefield with being reliant on expensive batteries and technology. They'll always end up going wrong, it's pretty much guaranteed.

 

[Jonny Ingbar]

Interestingly my car probably has the most ready made like for like comparison as the company that make the Model 3 LR Performance admits it is aimed squarely at the BMW M3. I know this is a possibly unique comparison but it is as close to like for like as you could get:

Lets have a look at various areas and see what comes out top:

Category	Winner
List price	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Top Speed	BMW M3
Power	BMW M3 (Just)
0-60	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Range	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Road Tax	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Fuel costs	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Congestion charge costs	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Cargo Volume	BMW M3
Warranty	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Deprecation	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Servicing costs	Tesla Model 3 Performance
Drivetrain	Tesla Model 3 Performance (selectable AWD, can be set to RWD or FWD if required)

Fairly interesting result.

I think it's all about what get you up on a morning and as a performance car the EV option just doesn't appeal to me.

It's not necessarily about outright straight line speed (which EV will win in many cases), it's about the overall experience and a huge part of that is the sound of a proper ICE.

I get thats thats a relatively narrow set of criteria when wants and needs are considered, but nevertheless I cant see me going down the EV route anytime soon.

 

[SilentProf]

The sound of the engine is only relevant because we’ve been conditioned to think certain volumes and frequencies equal speed or power. There will eventually be a tipping point where you just can’t justify the sound of a car over the clear performance advantage of an EV. We’re not there yet, but it’s coming. People of my age will look back with nostalgia but our grandkids will view today’s 3 series and C class in the same way we think of a morris minor or mini metro.

 

[JustTheGent]

I'll get a lot more back too, and it's new, got all the tech, the fuel is 1/4 the price of the equivalent, I don't have to bother with fuel stations (99% of the time), don't pay any tax, it's fast, it will be in demand when I decide to sell. The company tax breaks/ benefits are massive too, but I don't even need to factor that in comparing with an ICE, as it murders a comparable ICE.

Like I keep saying though, try and find me an ICE equivalent, for the same spec, age, power, warranty and TCO?

Compare all you like with an old car, but you're not comparing "eggs with eggs".

You think your engine and gearbox will last another decade? Is it in warranty for the next 100,000 miles or 8 years? Maybe if it breaks you can tell them it was tried and tested, and get a free replacement?

A "bit" on fuel? You mean 3/4 the cost on fuel? Never mind the tax, discs, pads etc.

I don't have a Tesla, ST can fill you in on those, they've been making EV's for about 13 years though, and are now the most valuable car company in the world, I guess they know what they're doing. The model 3 has an 8 year 100k mile warranty, the S and X 8 years/ 150k. I've never had anything like that on any VW, BMW, Audi, Merc, Porsche etc. I expect that carries over to whoever gets it at 3 years, with 40k miles on it.

A house can and does, and those things are far more important, which is why people should probably spend 5-10x more on their house than their car. I'm not saying someone should get a 100k house and a 100k car. I'm using your point that if you pay less, you get less, which you've confirmed, cheers.
People rely on their cars to pay for their house.

If people can afford £200 TCO, they can spend £200 TCO, or £500, or £1000 or £2000. What you get for each of those brackets is what I'm on about. Comparing someone having £1000 to spend and £200 to spend is two completely different arguments, I'd never advise someone with a £500 TCO budget to spend £1,000 TCO, it would be ludicrous. Like is someone with 3 kids spending 200k on a house with a garden or 1m on a bigger house with a garden, different budgets get you different things. Same applies to shoes, watches, phones, anything. You can always buy something at a lesser TCO budget, but you're going to be getting less for that. The more you go up the budget range the more you pay a premium on your return, it's the law or diminishing marginal returns.

Still not buying it.

You're not really get a lot more back, you're spending a considerable amount of money each month. You probably can't really afford it, that's why you're doing it like that. Most people who pay for things monthly can't really afford them, that's why they pay monthly. My guess is if you had to pay 70k/80k/90k or whatever it is up front, you wouldn't play ball, it would be too much. So you trick your mind into thinking you can afford it. In essence, you create a liability for yourself to attain the items you want. You're not fooling me, kid - I've seen it all before.

The house to car thing doesn't make sense. They aren't connected for me. There's just no connection there. Homes are bought for all sorts of reasons and factors. Everyone needs a home and nearly everyone could do without a car. It's as simple as that. People buy cars mainly as status symbols, just look at the amount of SUVs on the road. They aren't needed. And my vehicle can do anything that a £100k or £250k vehicle can do, as for the purpose intended for UK roads.

 

[SmallTown]

Take note gents

That's the general consensus on both counts. I've done the maths and the cost of replacing my vehicle with a new EV are astronomical. And I believe my vehicle is actually better than any EV. I wouldn't get a used EV either as they are not tried and tested. Not that many vehicles stand the test of time. These EVs are a minefield with being reliant on expensive batteries and technology. They'll always end up going wrong, it's pretty much guaranteed.

This is the most ludicrous, entirely fact free FUD post I've seen so far. Everything yiu say is just ridiculous and based entirely on incorrect propaganda from makers of ICE vehicles trying to save their companies. Yiu should be embarrassed you've fallen for it enough to constantly repeat the lies. Despite someone patiently trying to educate you

 

[SmallTown]

The sound of the engine is only relevant because we’ve been conditioned to think certain volumes and frequencies equal speed or power. There will eventually be a tipping point where you just can’t justify the sound of a car over the clear performance advantage of an EV. We’re not there yet, but it’s coming. People of my age will look back with nostalgia but our grandkids will view today’s 3 series and C class in the same way we think of a morris minor or mini metro.

Funny, I was thinking similar today. Walked to my car and there was someone in a heavily modded BMW M6. The old me would have been impressed with the revving engine, the over the top and crazily loud exhaust and all the pops and bangs. The new me just gets into his Tesla and rlays the guy wants a race, so I can show him what modern speed sounds like

 

[Redwurzel]

Andy - remember my stated primary concern is to be get from A to B, reliably and in a reasonable time at a economical cost. A brand new Polo does that for £17k and will last at least 15 years. Possibly an electric VW id3 (which is second smallest VW and secondest cheapest electric VW) gives a driver some extras, but I am not interested in those extras for the £13k extra cost, so to me the id3 and Polo Match are the same. If I used new petrol SEAT or Skoda it would be a bit cheaper than VW (same engines) but I would be accused of not comparing like with like. New Petrol VW group cars have lots of extras too btw. Agreed the price of new cars has increased in the last 8 years, my guess is by around 60% well above ordinary inflation.

I appreciate your and ST's information, but sorry no one has shown to me an electric car is cheaper for me despite its current special low tax treatment. I will look to switch when it is.

 

[UTB 1953]

With the likes of the USA, China, Russia and India pumping Millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. Do you think Mr Boring Bastaard driving his Teslar is going to help one jot. Give me my BMW X4 3.5 all drive every day.

 

[Smogonthethames]

"The other half was late for netball today and she asked if she could take my EV that had been happily refueling as we slept"
Pass the sick bag!!!

FFS, why don't you, your other half and Andy_W get a room....and discuss EVs... you boring t!ts