3 more players

B_G said:
Mowatt was better than Barlaser hence why Barlaser couldn't get in the team in front of him at the end of the season. Mowatt started poor but had a good end to the season.

Yes forgot Steffan. Probably a 7 or 8. Strengthened the argument for loans.

Without our loans last season we would have struggled and we will struggle this season without them. Look at the start we've made.
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Not much in it. He had an ok end to the season but he was never good. He will have been more expensive than Barlaser for basically the same output.

Of course we would have struggled last season without the loans but if we had used that £Xm and bought players instead then we'd have also not been promoted but we'd have started this season with £Xm more of players. We've replaced Steffen with Dieng. If we'd signed him last season we wouldn't have needed to do that this season. He is on £80k per week at City so he probably cost more than Dieng will cost us this season. The others were on less but would have cost us in wages and loan fees (Everton wanting £1m for Cannon is probably in the right ballpark being they were all similarly proven championship players).

When you say we will struggle though the likelihood is with or without loans we will be playing in the championship again next season so is it really sensible to be back in this position next season when we can invest in permanent transfers instead that might give us a better platform (or some big money sales to reinvest)?
 
It all comes down to joined up thinking and it takes time. The likes of Coventry and Luton have shown that if you can develop a strong core over 2-3 years you can get up near the play-offs. Loans or hitting the jackpot on purchases can get you the rest of the way.

Luton spent a grand total of around £5m over 5 years getting themselves into position but loaned in several players each season. Coventry did something similar but also hit the jackpot with Gyokeres and Hamer. They've used the cash from those to invest in several players who are maybe at a similar level to the likes of Dieng, Engel and Latte Lath.

I'll be astonished if we don't loan in 2-3 players this season. The question is whether we can use them to help develop our own players or we end up doing what we have for the last few years and replacing our own players with them.

For what it's worth, it looks to me that Dieng, Rogers and RVDB are Premier league players in waiting. Engel and Latte Lath, too early to tell. Think Engel might have what it takes. What we need is to fill the gaps with quality so that Rogers can play 30+ games and develop but someone can step in if Rogers loses form or gets injured.

The other thing about Luton and Coventry was keeping the manager. Luton had to change this season but Rob Edwards showed that if you replace like with like you can improve. See also Brighton. We absolutely need to go all in on Carrick. We can't wake up in 6 months time and find out that Warnock's just stepped out of the showers to save us. Again.
 
Bruce said:
It all comes down to joined up thinking and it takes time. The likes of Coventry and Luton have shown that if you can develop a strong core over 2-3 years you can get up near the play-offs. Loans or hitting the jackpot on purchases can get you the rest of the way.

Luton spent a grand total of around £5m over 5 years getting themselves into position but loaned in several players each season. Coventry did something similar but also hit the jackpot with Gyokeres and Hamer. They've used the cash from those to invest in several players who are maybe at a similar level to the likes of Dieng, Engel and Latte Lath.

I'll be astonished if we don't loan in 2-3 players this season. The question is whether we can use them to help develop our own players or we end up doing what we have for the last few years and replacing our own players with them.

For what it's worth, it looks to me that Dieng, Rogers and RVDB are Premier league players in waiting. Engel and Latte Lath, too early to tell. Think Engel might have what it takes. What we need is to fill the gaps with quality so that Rogers can play 30+ games and develop but someone can step in if Rogers loses form or gets injured.

The other thing about Luton and Coventry was keeping the manager. Luton had to change this season but Rob Edwards showed that if you replace like with like you can improve. See also Brighton. We absolutely need to go all in on Carrick. We can't wake up in 6 months time and find out that Warnock's just stepped out of the showers to save us. Again.
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100% agree. Strategy means making long term decisions and I'm much happier with the club having a plan, so long as they stick to it. Bringing in dinosaurs to manage a specific group of people that play a different system to the way the previous dinosaur played is never going to work. It can work with a bit of luck but it's like going to the casino with a strategy of putting everything on 27 red. Loans allow the flexibility to change regularly but they add too much of a gamble each season.

Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
If this season was an F1 race, we have been pushing when in traffic. Now we have a clear road ahead of us and an opportunity to push!! So we've been immediately called into a pitstop.
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It's more like we have been borrowing Red Bull's spare engine and now we've realised hiring some engineers and developing our own might be a better move for the long term. We were never going to win the constructor's championship anyway and we were only going to scrape the points once or twice at best. This time next season or the season after we might be competitive enough to make a challenge.
 
indeedido said:
There are 736 appearances possible in a Championship league season. So less than 25% of the appearances were on loan.
Your stats seem to merely point out that our loan players were of a higher quality than in previous years and we finished higher in the league.

2022-23
Burnley won the league with 131 appearances from their 6 loan players, despite signing 15 players on permanent contracts for a lot of money.
Sheff U went up 2nd gave 108 to their 4 loan players. Coventry 123 to their 6.

2021-22
Forest won play offs and gave 161 appearances to their 6 loan players.

2020-21
Norwich won the league and gave 97 appearances to 4 loan players.

2019-20
Leeds won the league with 166 appearances from 7 on loan players.
WBA went up 2nd with 128 appearances from 5 loan players.
Fulham won the play offs with 180 appearances from 6 loan players.

I'd far rather borrow players of the calibre of Archer and Ramsey, or Doyle, McAtee, Maatsen and Tella for that matter, than speculate on the likes of Hoppe, Barlaser.

There is no right or wrong mix in terms of numbers of loans. It is all about quality, budget and getting it right to go up up as soon as you can.
3 of the last 4 champions have done it. 2 of the runners up and 2 play off winners too.
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McNair, Coburn, Coulson, Barlaser, Akpom, Payero.. plus money from Bola and the sell on fee from Wood?

I could see the likes of these coming in to cover/replace them.. possibly

12 Cody Drameh - deal expires 2024
20 Liam Cullen - deal expires 2024
24 Novatus Miroshi - deal expires 2024
28 Isaac Hayden - deal expires 2026
30 Ross Stewart - deal expires 2024
31 Alex Pritchard - deal expires 2024

Glover_elbow said:
We need far more than three the squads not big enough
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Glover_elbow said:
We need far more than three the squads not big enough
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We've got 21 players that need registering in our squad, then VDB, Hackney, Rogers and Coburn on top of that who don't need to be listed as they're under 21.

The maximum number of players you can have in your squad is 25, so we can't have far more than 3, unless we sell players or permanently sign a bunch of very young players.
 
TeaCider said:
We've got 21 players that need registering in our squad, then VDB, Hackney, Rogers and Coburn on top of that who don't need to be listed as they're under 21.

The maximum number of players you can have in your squad is 25, so we can't have far more than 3, unless we sell players or permanently sign a bunch of very young players.
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McNair and Payero going would allow us to bring in five over 21 players.. 12,24,28,30 & 31 are free as far as squad number go.

Liam Cullen is 20yo & Novatus Miroshi is 20yo (both have their contracts expiring in 2024)
 
Nano said:
Of course we would have struggled last season without the loans but if we had used that £Xm and bought players instead then we'd have also not been promoted but we'd have started this season with £Xm more of players. We've replaced Steffen with Dieng. If we'd signed him last season we wouldn't have needed to do that this season. He is on £80k per week at City so he probably cost more than Dieng will cost us this season. The others were on less but would have cost us in wages and loan fees (Everton wanting £1m for Cannon is probably in the right ballpark being they were all similarly proven championship players).
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I have no idea what the structure of the loan deals but you seem to assume they are costing millions and millions. I highly doubt that. Do you know what these mysterious loan fees were for Archer , Ramsey or Giles? I've not seen anything reported or are you making this fit your narrative?

We have to pay wages and signing on fees for players we sign as well you know, as well as their transfer fee.
 
indeedido said:
McGree, Forss, Hoppe, Clarke, Barlaser, Boyd Munce is c£12.5m before wages.
Do you think we would get our money back on these 6 combined?
That's without Payero £6m who was probably before Scott to be fair.
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McGree paid about 3m we could potentially make profit. Could be worth about 4.5m right now

Forss, paid less than 3, certainly haven’t lost money on a ‘winger’ who got 10 goals

Hoppe, paid 2m probably get about 750k back

Clarke, 2m but not really fair to judge as this is an injury situation. We might get our money back from insurance or he may get fit and be a regular player again

Barlaser we paid 700k for him, if chose to sell right now we would profit by 500k or so.

Boyd-munce cost about 120k, chicken feed

Payero was 3.5m rising to 6m if he met all his substantial clauses which he didn’t didn’t get close to meeting. Probably leave for free.

We are probably up slightly in value on last summers transfers but evens out with the loss on Payero
 
Gunslinger said:
I think some fans underestimate just how much a good young player from the premiersip actually costs

There is a loan fee and wages on top, the loans players last year cost us millions in fees and wages and all that investment has gone, it is not a sustainable model
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Must have cost a good 4-6 mill last season for the loanees and two were only here half a year
 
newyddion said:
McNair and Payero going would allow us to bring in five over 21 players.. 12,24,28,30 & 31 are free as far as squad number go.

Liam Cullen is 20yo & Novatus Miroshi is 20yo (both have their contracts expiring in 2024)
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You talk about Miroshi a lot, is this a Newy-pick or has there been paper/interweb chatter on this one?
 
B_G said:
Mowatt was better than Barlaser hence why Barlaser couldn't get in the team in front of him at the end of the season. Mowatt started poor but had a good end to the season.

Yes forgot Steffan. Probably a 7 or 8. Strengthened the argument for loans.

Without our loans last season we would have struggled and we will struggle this season without them. Look at the start we've made.
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I’m hoping that Barlaser can be shipped out on loan and bring in someone who can tackle and can offer some leadership.I’d even suggest that Mowatt could come back in and offer a lot more than Barlaser both in leadership and passing/tacking ability, but perhaps even he isn’t good enough to get us where we need to be.
 
BoroMart said:
McGree paid about 3m we could potentially make profit. Could be worth about 4.5m right now

Forss, paid less than 3, certainly haven’t lost money on a ‘winger’ who got 10 goals

Hoppe, paid 2m probably get about 750k back

Clarke, 2m but not really fair to judge as this is an injury situation. We might get our money back from insurance or he may get fit and be a regular player again

Barlaser we paid 700k for him, if chose to sell right now we would profit by 500k or so.

Boyd-munce cost about 120k, chicken feed

Payero was 3.5m rising to 6m if he met all his substantial clauses which he didn’t didn’t get close to meeting. Probably leave for free.

We are probably up slightly in value on last summers transfers but evens out with the loss on Payero
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Those are not the figures in transfermarkt, but the truth is nobody knows the exact numbers.
I honestly don’t see us making a profit if we sold McGree or Forss right now. Clarke and Hoppe are big losses on top of Payero. Barlaser is neither here nor there.
Our record of buying has not fit “the model” as far as I can see.
I do really like the look of Rogers. I’m really not keen on Silvera.

My main point is recruit quality. If you can buy it great, if not then hire it. The academy should be used as the really deep cover.
Our model can adapt when we go up. The priority is to go up ASAP, not pretending you are gradually building.
 
indeedido said:
My main point is recruit quality. If you can buy it great, if not then hire it. The academy should be used as the really deep cover.
Our model can adapt when we go up. The priority is to go up ASAP, not pretending you are gradually building.
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Absolutely, quality is the only thing that gets you ahead of the rest, last year proved that, we just started too late. As you rightly say buy it in if you can, if not hire it and buy it if promoted where possible. Ok we just failed on the hire it stakes, but to throw the plan in the bin because we have to start again is just another lurch in another direction.

Our current model seems more Airfix than Abbey Clancy
 
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