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SuperStu said:
All 3 (y)

The guy had a decade as chancellor and left us totally exposed to the global financial crisis. I suppose you'll say he was a great chancellor because of all the growth before the recession but its a bit like saying Southgate was a good boro manager for finishing in midtable and getting to an FA cup QF before being embarrassed by Cardiff and getting relegated.

Tuition fees, ASBOs, no nationalisations, nothing done about Thatchers anti trade union legislation, the way tax credits were used to top up wages without costing employers. You'll of course say but what about minimum wage but overall I really don't think there's much of a case to say Brown was a leftwing CoE. He was a privatise profits, socialise losses type.

Cash for honours, cash for access, the MPs expenses scandal, the Bernie Ecclestone donation. New Labour wasn't whiter than white when it came to financial dodgy dealings.
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But were the
Lefty said:
pledges which they felt they needed to make to get in to power in order to enact the many things they did that benefited this country enormously.
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worth it? Or has the crippling debt which Education and Health now find themselves in outweigh any benefit that the country initially enjoyed? According to a Guardian report from 2012, PFI will ultimately cost us Three Hundred Thousand Million Pounds.

In another Guardian article from last year "NHS trusts spent close to a half a billion pounds on interest charges from private companies for private finance initiative (PFI) contracts last year – equivalent to the salaries of 15,000 newly qualified nurses.

Hospital groups spent £2.3bn on legacy PFI projects in 2020-21, of which just under £1bn went on costs for essential services such as cleaning and maintenance. A third of the remaining PFI spend – £457m – went purely on paying off interest charges."
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
But were the

worth it? Or has the crippling debt which Education and Health now find themselves in outweigh any benefit that the country initially enjoyed? According to a Guardian report from 2012, PFI will ultimately cost us Three Hundred Thousand Million Pounds.

In another Guardian article from last year "NHS trusts spent close to a half a billion pounds on interest charges from private companies for private finance initiative (PFI) contracts last year – equivalent to the salaries of 15,000 newly qualified nurses.

Hospital groups spent £2.3bn on legacy PFI projects in 2020-21, of which just under £1bn went on costs for essential services such as cleaning and maintenance. A third of the remaining PFI spend – £457m – went purely on paying off interest charges."
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Yes the execution of financing the investment wasn't good, but the reality is that there wouldn't have been a major decision to make on financing but for years of Tory neglect, that's the root cause problem. PFI is at least 50% the fault of Tories due to their running down of essential infrastructure and services
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
But were the

worth it? Or has the crippling debt which Education and Health now find themselves in outweigh any benefit that the country initially enjoyed? According to a Guardian report from 2012, PFI will ultimately cost us Three Hundred Thousand Million Pounds.

In another Guardian article from last year "NHS trusts spent close to a half a billion pounds on interest charges from private companies for private finance initiative (PFI) contracts last year – equivalent to the salaries of 15,000 newly qualified nurses.

Hospital groups spent £2.3bn on legacy PFI projects in 2020-21, of which just under £1bn went on costs for essential services such as cleaning and maintenance. A third of the remaining PFI spend – £457m – went purely on paying off interest charges."
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And the cost of treating late stage cancer, for instance, versus the cost of detecting it and treating it early and the benefit of retaining a healthy husband, wife, son, daughter, member of the workforce?

You have to look at the whole picture, which I think Brown did and your bias makes you incapable.
 
BoroMart said:
Yes the execution of financing the investment wasn't good, but the reality is that there wouldn't have been a major decision to make on financing but for years of Tory neglect, that's the root cause problem. PFI is at least 50% the fault of Tories due to their running down of essential infrastructure and services
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Yes, there were major decisions to be made but that's what politicians are for and we judge them on the results of those decisions. PFI was wrong and borrow and spend should have been the path we took.
 
SuperStu said:
All 3 (y)

The guy had a decade as chancellor and left us totally exposed to the global financial crisis. I suppose you'll say he was a great chancellor because of all the growth before the recession but its a bit like saying Southgate was a good boro manager for finishing in midtable and getting to an FA cup QF before being embarrassed by Cardiff and getting relegated.

Tuition fees, ASBOs, no nationalisations, nothing done about Thatchers anti trade union legislation, the way tax credits were used to top up wages without costing employers. You'll of course say but what about minimum wage but overall I really don't think there's much of a case to say Brown was a leftwing CoE. He was a privatise profits, socialise losses type.

Cash for honours, cash for access, the MPs expenses scandal, the Bernie Ecclestone donation. New Labour wasn't whiter than white when it came to financial dodgy dealings.
Click to expand...

New Labour wasn't whiter than white, but is that down to Brown and his role as C of E?

He did make mistakes, but who doesn't? Competent people do make mistakes. You say Brown was incompetent, I think he was very competent. The entire world should thank god he was when the crash hit.

You think he is on the Right. Mental.

You think he is corrupt? So, how has he been lavishly spending his time and rewards ever since he left office?

The far left, it seems, are so traumatised by the failure of their project they are no longer capable of balance and reason.
 
Lefty said:
And the cost of treating late stage cancer, for instance, versus the cost of detecting it and treating it early and the benefit of retaining a healthy husband, wife, son, daughter, member of the workforce?
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How did detecting cancer early benefit from PFI? I'm not saying that the hospitals shouldn't have been built, I'm saying we should have used Government borrowing to build them. Do you not think that early detection rates now are not hampered by the crippling debt that the NHS has been handed? According to IPPR in 2019:-

"The NHS faces a PFI postcode lottery as some trusts are forced to spend up to £1 in every £6 on PFI payments with worrying consequences for patient safety, says the IPPR think tank. Decades of underinvestment, austerity, and the legacy of the privately financed capital projects has restricted long-term investment in buildings, maintenance and new life saving technology.

In a new report, IPPR outlines the ‘capital crisis’ facing the NHS and calls for the end of the ‘toxic’ legacy of PFI. IPPR analysis of latest HMRC data found that PFI, the scheme which funded capital spending through private finance, is costing the NHS an extortionate amount. For just £13bn of investment, the NHS has been landed with an £80bn bill.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
How did detecting cancer early benefit from PFI? I'm not saying that the hospitals shouldn't have been built, I'm saying we should have used Government borrowing to build them. Do you not think that early detection rates now are not hampered by the crippling debt that the NHS has been handed? According to IPPR in 2019:-

"The NHS faces a PFI postcode lottery as some trusts are forced to spend up to £1 in every £6 on PFI payments with worrying consequences for patient safety, says the IPPR think tank. Decades of underinvestment, austerity, and the legacy of the privately financed capital projects has restricted long-term investment in buildings, maintenance and new life saving technology.

In a new report, IPPR outlines the ‘capital crisis’ facing the NHS and calls for the end of the ‘toxic’ legacy of PFI. IPPR analysis of latest HMRC data found that PFI, the scheme which funded capital spending through private finance, is costing the NHS an extortionate amount. For just £13bn of investment, the NHS has been landed with an £80bn bill.
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I'm not saying this isn't a problem and could possibly have been done differently. In fact I'd be looking to null these contracts.

The point I am making is it still was, on balance, better for the country in the round, to have this investment when it did, even if it was done this way. The £80bn bill would be even more and less healthy people in the workforce as net contributors to pay for it.
 
Lefty said:
The far left, it seems, are so traumatised by the failure of their project they are no longer capable of balance and reason.
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:rolleyes: forget I said anything.

Brown was brilliant and he was left wing and for some reason brilliant left wing CoEs also represent a failure of the left wing project. Makes sense to me. (y)
 
Lefty said:
I'm not saying this isn't a problem and could possibly have been done differently. In fact I'd be looking to null these contracts.

The point I am making is it still was, on balance, better for the country in the round, to have this investment when it did, even if it was done this way. The £80bn bill would be even more and less healthy people in the workforce as net contributors to pay for it.
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The £80bn bill would have been more using public borrowing?
 
SuperStu said:
:rolleyes: forget I said anything.

Brown was brilliant and he was left wing and for some reason brilliant left wing CoEs also represent a failure of the left wing project. Makes sense to me. (y)
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sarcasm the death knell of sensible debate
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
The £80bn bill would have been more using public borrowing?
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Not what I said. The cost to the country via the additional healthcare costs, lost man hours, sickness benefits etc would have been far more than not providing these facilities. As I understand it, that was the choice. There weren't sufficient public funds available at the time.
 
SuperStu said:
Tuition fees, ASBOs, no nationalisations, nothing done about Thatchers anti trade union legislation, the way tax credits were used to top up wages without costing employers. You'll of course say but what about minimum wage but overall I really don't think there's much of a case to say Brown was a leftwing CoE. He was a privatise profits, socialise losses type.
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Lefty said:
You think he is on the Right. Mental.
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What sensible debate @BoroMart? Why should I respond to this with anything more than sarcasm? What would be the point?
 
Lefty said:
Not what I said. The cost to the country via the additional healthcare costs, lost man hours, sickness benefits etc would have been far more than not providing these facilities. As I understand it, that was the choice. There weren't sufficient public funds available at the time.
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The country can borrow as much as it wants. It doesn't have to rely on money that is already available, though that is what Governments - even to this day - want us to believe. And none of the main parties are willing to explain or admit this, which was my initial point.

A couple of examples:-

Since the Last labour Government the country's debt has risen exponentially despite the con trick which was austerity. By 2020 the UK was in far greater debt than at the end of the financial crash. Look how much money they found for the Covid pandemic though. In March 2022 it was up to £410bn

Secondly, Labour were floating their PFI intentions in the late 90's as you said. but even by 1999 people were calling it out as a con. However, putting that to one side, the country were far worse off a decade later, after the financial crash, but how much money did Brown produce to bail the banks out and where did that money come from? The answer according to Wikipedia is £138m made up of loans and new money. And guess what? It was mostly recouped by 2022.

Wiki: "At peak, the cash cost of these interventions was £137 billion, paid to the banks in the form of loans and new capital. Most of this outlay has been recouped over the years. As at October 2021, the UK Office for Budget Responsibility reported the cost of these interventions as £33 billion, comprising a loss of £35.5 billion on the NatWest (formerly Royal Bank of Scotland) rescue, offset by some net gains elsewhere."

In short, that path was always open to Brown and Blair and would have been much cheaper, and would not have left the NHS with the debt is struggles with to this day, pouring interest payments into the pockets of private firms and investors.
 
Lefty said:
Apologies.

Also for how much this thread has veered off topic.
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No apology necessary. For what its worth I actually don't mind you saying my posts are mental :ROFLMAO: but to my mind the quid pro quo for that is that I can do a sarcastic response. It's a message board not some university debate club. Wasn't meaning to have a go at you as much as try to get the post police to see their biases might be involved.
 
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