Corcaigh_the_Cat
Well-known member
Soft right for me.
YouGov Poll - 33 Point lead!
- Thread starter Chris_Boro
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Lefty
Well-known member
What people forget when they talk about Brown's 'dreadful PFI' plan is that as part of Labours election pledge and attempt to win over the Murdoch press and the voters in the centre, who had become used to the taxation rates of the Tories and scared of the Labour 'tax and spend' narrative the Tories had successfully labelled them with under Kinnock, Foot, Callahan/Healey, Wilson, is that Blair and Brown committed to the same taxation plans of the Tories previous budgets.
They did plan to spend the money raised differently to the Tories. They had priorities - rescue the NHS and Education, Education, Education. This was about investment in the future. Long term thinking. They also knew it required more spending than the Tories budgets would raise in taxation, so they had to find ways to raise more money. The reasoning being that even if it costs more, as long as it costs less than it did to treat illness, to get waiting lists down, to reduce sick days, to prevent illness or get to it sooner rather than let it progress, it was still good economics for the country.
We have seen the alternative ever since. We have seen the degrading of the NHS. Where are the Tories 40 hospitals, hospitals they know are needed?
Yes, it would have been better to fund these hospitals through taxation, but they were restricted with what they could do because of those pledges which they felt they needed to make to get in to power in order to enact the many things they did that benefited this country enormously.
They did plan to spend the money raised differently to the Tories. They had priorities - rescue the NHS and Education, Education, Education. This was about investment in the future. Long term thinking. They also knew it required more spending than the Tories budgets would raise in taxation, so they had to find ways to raise more money. The reasoning being that even if it costs more, as long as it costs less than it did to treat illness, to get waiting lists down, to reduce sick days, to prevent illness or get to it sooner rather than let it progress, it was still good economics for the country.
We have seen the alternative ever since. We have seen the degrading of the NHS. Where are the Tories 40 hospitals, hospitals they know are needed?
Yes, it would have been better to fund these hospitals through taxation, but they were restricted with what they could do because of those pledges which they felt they needed to make to get in to power in order to enact the many things they did that benefited this country enormously.
Midnight to Six Man
Active member
I've never known ( I'm 60 ) such a wide gap between the so called left and right voters.
People who deem themselves as left of centre think this government is too right wing .
While those on the right ( including Red Wall voters ) don't think its right wing enough .
People who deem themselves as left of centre think this government is too right wing .
While those on the right ( including Red Wall voters ) don't think its right wing enough .
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
This is because the Tories and Labour were complicit in taking advantage of the public's financial illiteracy. Government borrowing is far, far cheaper than any PFI deals, which are costing the taxpayer hundreds of billions of pounds. Governments can borrow at much lower rates than anyone else and despite what politicians will tell you, it isn't like a mortgage where timescales and repayment rates have to be adhered to.
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Lefty
Well-known member
So what are you accusing Brown of? Being economically incompetent, being right wing, or being corrupt and handing out lucrative contracts to friends in the city?
FabioPorkpie
Well-known member
Meanwhile, as 30p Lee is appointed Deputy Chair….
All 3
The guy had a decade as chancellor and left us totally exposed to the global financial crisis. I suppose you'll say he was a great chancellor because of all the growth before the recession but its a bit like saying Southgate was a good boro manager for finishing in midtable and getting to an FA cup QF before being embarrassed by Cardiff and getting relegated.
Tuition fees, ASBOs, no nationalisations, nothing done about Thatchers anti trade union legislation, the way tax credits were used to top up wages without costing employers. You'll of course say but what about minimum wage but overall I really don't think there's much of a case to say Brown was a leftwing CoE. He was a privatise profits, socialise losses type.
Cash for honours, cash for access, the MPs expenses scandal, the Bernie Ecclestone donation. New Labour wasn't whiter than white when it came to financial dodgy dealings.
BoroMart
Well-known member
spot on Lefty. IT was essential that we invested, but there was pressure from the right wing owned media to not raise taxes. People need to learn, taxation is a part of life, and it's necessary.
BoroMart
Well-known member
Every western country was exposed. Not sure what could have been done to avoid it, without giving up our position as a leading financial market service provider. It's also worth noting that Brown was fundamental on a global stage to fighting the crisis to stop it becoming a depression.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
But were theAll 3
The guy had a decade as chancellor and left us totally exposed to the global financial crisis. I suppose you'll say he was a great chancellor because of all the growth before the recession but its a bit like saying Southgate was a good boro manager for finishing in midtable and getting to an FA cup QF before being embarrassed by Cardiff and getting relegated.
Tuition fees, ASBOs, no nationalisations, nothing done about Thatchers anti trade union legislation, the way tax credits were used to top up wages without costing employers. You'll of course say but what about minimum wage but overall I really don't think there's much of a case to say Brown was a leftwing CoE. He was a privatise profits, socialise losses type.
Cash for honours, cash for access, the MPs expenses scandal, the Bernie Ecclestone donation. New Labour wasn't whiter than white when it came to financial dodgy dealings.
worth it? Or has the crippling debt which Education and Health now find themselves in outweigh any benefit that the country initially enjoyed? According to a Guardian report from 2012, PFI will ultimately cost us Three Hundred Thousand Million Pounds.
In another Guardian article from last year "NHS trusts spent close to a half a billion pounds on interest charges from private companies for private finance initiative (PFI) contracts last year – equivalent to the salaries of 15,000 newly qualified nurses.
Hospital groups spent £2.3bn on legacy PFI projects in 2020-21, of which just under £1bn went on costs for essential services such as cleaning and maintenance. A third of the remaining PFI spend – £457m – went purely on paying off interest charges."
BoroMart
Well-known member
Yes the execution of financing the investment wasn't good, but the reality is that there wouldn't have been a major decision to make on financing but for years of Tory neglect, that's the root cause problem. PFI is at least 50% the fault of Tories due to their running down of essential infrastructure and services
Lefty
Well-known member
And the cost of treating late stage cancer, for instance, versus the cost of detecting it and treating it early and the benefit of retaining a healthy husband, wife, son, daughter, member of the workforce?
You have to look at the whole picture, which I think Brown did and your bias makes you incapable.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
Yes, there were major decisions to be made but that's what politicians are for and we judge them on the results of those decisions. PFI was wrong and borrow and spend should have been the path we took.
Lefty
Well-known member
All 3
The guy had a decade as chancellor and left us totally exposed to the global financial crisis. I suppose you'll say he was a great chancellor because of all the growth before the recession but its a bit like saying Southgate was a good boro manager for finishing in midtable and getting to an FA cup QF before being embarrassed by Cardiff and getting relegated.
Tuition fees, ASBOs, no nationalisations, nothing done about Thatchers anti trade union legislation, the way tax credits were used to top up wages without costing employers. You'll of course say but what about minimum wage but overall I really don't think there's much of a case to say Brown was a leftwing CoE. He was a privatise profits, socialise losses type.
Cash for honours, cash for access, the MPs expenses scandal, the Bernie Ecclestone donation. New Labour wasn't whiter than white when it came to financial dodgy dealings.
New Labour wasn't whiter than white, but is that down to Brown and his role as C of E?
He did make mistakes, but who doesn't? Competent people do make mistakes. You say Brown was incompetent, I think he was very competent. The entire world should thank god he was when the crash hit.
You think he is on the Right. Mental.
You think he is corrupt? So, how has he been lavishly spending his time and rewards ever since he left office?
The far left, it seems, are so traumatised by the failure of their project they are no longer capable of balance and reason.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
How did detecting cancer early benefit from PFI? I'm not saying that the hospitals shouldn't have been built, I'm saying we should have used Government borrowing to build them. Do you not think that early detection rates now are not hampered by the crippling debt that the NHS has been handed? According to IPPR in 2019:-
"The NHS faces a PFI postcode lottery as some trusts are forced to spend up to £1 in every £6 on PFI payments with worrying consequences for patient safety, says the IPPR think tank. Decades of underinvestment, austerity, and the legacy of the privately financed capital projects has restricted long-term investment in buildings, maintenance and new life saving technology.
In a new report, IPPR outlines the ‘capital crisis’ facing the NHS and calls for the end of the ‘toxic’ legacy of PFI. IPPR analysis of latest HMRC data found that PFI, the scheme which funded capital spending through private finance, is costing the NHS an extortionate amount. For just £13bn of investment, the NHS has been landed with an £80bn bill.
Lefty
Well-known member
I'm not saying this isn't a problem and could possibly have been done differently. In fact I'd be looking to null these contracts.
The point I am making is it still was, on balance, better for the country in the round, to have this investment when it did, even if it was done this way. The £80bn bill would be even more and less healthy people in the workforce as net contributors to pay for it.
forget I said anything.Brown was brilliant and he was left wing and for some reason brilliant left wing CoEs also represent a failure of the left wing project. Makes sense to me.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
The £80bn bill would have been more using public borrowing?
BoroMart
Well-known member
sarcasm the death knell of sensible debate
Brown was brilliant and he was left wing and for some reason brilliant left wing CoEs also represent a failure of the left wing project. Makes sense to me.
Lefty
Well-known member
Not what I said. The cost to the country via the additional healthcare costs, lost man hours, sickness benefits etc would have been far more than not providing these facilities. As I understand it, that was the choice. There weren't sufficient public funds available at the time.