YouGov Poll - 33 Point lead!

MolteniArcore

Well-known member
@MolteniArcore you clearly have nothing to add once again and don’t like it when people use this statistics unless they say how wonderful Starmer is 🤷🏻‍♂️ And I don’t hate him but there is more to a general election win beyond sampling 2000 people 🤦‍♂️

Why don’t you join your other buddies on that Brexit thread 🤔

As you read my reply this morning I can't actually believe it's taken you this long to come up with this thinly veiled insult. Your retorts are as weak as your arguments.
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
Jeez Louise. I'm sorry you got it wrong about the timing of surestart. Get over it for goodness sake. It's been insult after insult every message since.
I didn't get anything wrong about the timing of surestart. No insults, just facts that you can't engage in an honest and respectful manner.
 

WeeGord

Well-known member
Come on folks can we agree to disagree and draw a line under this please? The daft thing is its a disagreement between people who are broadly ideologically similar and who all want better times for the British people and this arguing just creates division amongst people who want the same thing.

I've been a lifelong Labour supporter and I'm a long-term member of the party. My first GE was in 1997 and I've voted Labout in every GE since meaning I've supported Blair, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn and at the next GE I will support Starmer.

I'm a socialist which is very obvious to the long term posters on this forum and what's more I'm a proud socialist. However, I'm also a pargmatist and respectfully disagree with the suggestion that Starmer led Labour government will just be another Tory government. It won't, not even close. Will it sit in the left of centre to centreground, yes. Personally, I would love nothing more than a genuine left-wing government. However, I also realise that for all of the rights and wrongs there just isn't currently enough support for the type of government I want. I have to therefore go with the next best option which is the next Labour government and that in itself is a much, much better option to 90% plus of the British people than another term of Tory rule.

Being in perpetual opposition allows the Tories to continue to stack everything up in their favour whether that be changing boundaries, insisting on proof of ID which will unfairly affect those who can't afford it, legislation which continues to erode democracy etc.

A Starmer led government is not the switch to the left that I personally would like, but its certainly a big step compared to this far right Tory party and will certainly be of benefit to far greater numbers of people than the current shower of $hite.

When those of us with left-leaning views are divided we allow the right the freedom to do whatever they wish and so despite minor differences in our beliefs and ideals, we need to stick together for the good of everyone.

Let's focus our attentions collectively on what has to be the number 1 target which is to rid this country of the Tory poison that has ruined it over the last 12 years.
 

exiledinboro

Well-known member
As you read my reply this morning I can't actually believe it's taken you this long to come up with this thinly veiled insult. Your retorts are as weak as your arguments.

@MolteniArcore I've mentioned this before and I used to deliver labour leaflets for my local council candidate

And I’d occasionally ask people will they vote Labour and if they had concerns like maybe how I come across or others on here I’d act all surprised and ask really as if I’d never heard that response before and then ask why, do you say that?

Usually it was because the Libs had graphs that showed only they can beat the Tories and that did actually work 🤦‍♂️

That straight away takes any confrontation out of the discussion and shows a) you’re listening and b) hopefully showed Labour in a good light

I’d then maybe add my own little response we’d have a laugh and move on and I’d carry on my day

Sometimes people having a say shouldn’t be instantly shut down and criticism is fine and actually healthy as long as people can respect that and honestly you have to have a positive message which is why I don’t bother with the thread and about the Tories

Put it this way some of the people posting are clearly left wing and if I had my campaign hat on my brain would be saying they’re wavering but are what’s going to give us a labour government

Anyway you sound like a good lad so I’ll leave you in peace ✌️
 

MolteniArcore

Well-known member
Come on folks can we agree to disagree and draw a line under this please? The daft thing is its a disagreement between people who are broadly ideologically similar and who all want better times for the British people and this arguing just creates division amongst people who want the same thing.

I've been a lifelong Labour supporter and I'm a long-term member of the party. My first GE was in 1997 and I've voted Labout in every GE since meaning I've supported Blair, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn and at the next GE I will support Starmer.

I'm a socialist which is very obvious to the long term posters on this forum and what's more I'm a proud socialist. However, I'm also a pargmatist and respectfully disagree with the suggestion that Starmer led Labour government will just be another Tory government. It won't, not even close. Will it sit in the left of centre to centreground, yes. Personally, I would love nothing more than a genuine left-wing government. However, I also realise that for all of the rights and wrongs there just isn't currently enough support for the type of government I want. I have to therefore go with the next best option which is the next Labour government and that in itself is a much, much better option to 90% plus of the British people than another term of Tory rule.

Being in perpetual opposition allows the Tories to continue to stack everything up in their favour whether that be changing boundaries, insisting on proof of ID which will unfairly affect those who can't afford it, legislation which continues to erode democracy etc.

A Starmer led government is not the switch to the left that I personally would like, but its certainly a big step compared to this far right Tory party and will certainly be of benefit to far greater numbers of people than the current shower of $hite.

When those of us with left-leaning views are divided we allow the right the freedom to do whatever they wish and so despite minor differences in our beliefs and ideals, we need to stick together for the good of everyone.

Let's focus our attentions collectively on what has to be the number 1 target which is to rid this country of the Tory poison that has ruined it over the last 12 years.

👏 👏 👏
 

HolgateCorner

Well-known member
@MolteniArcore I've mentioned this before and I used to deliver labour leaflets for my local council candidate

And I’d occasionally ask people will they vote Labour and if they had concerns like maybe how I come across or others on here I’d act all surprised and ask really as if I’d never heard that response before and then ask why, do you say that?

Usually it was because the Libs had graphs that showed only they can beat the Tories and that did actually work 🤦‍♂️

That straight away takes any confrontation out of the discussion and shows a) you’re listening and b) hopefully showed Labour in a good light

I’d then maybe add my own little response we’d have a laugh and move on and I’d carry on my day

Sometimes people having a say shouldn’t be instantly shut down and criticism is fine and actually healthy as long as people can respect that and honestly you have to have a positive message which is why I don’t bother with the thread and about the Tories

Put it this way some of the people posting are clearly left wing and if I had my campaign hat on my brain would be saying they’re wavering but are what’s going to give us a labour government

Anyway you sound like a good lad so I’ll leave you in peace ✌️
I can’t tell whether or not you are a Tory but I do think you live in the past too much. The country that Blair won three elections in or Corbyn lost two elections in has changed now, it’s always changing, you have to live in the here and now whether you lead Labour, the Tories, the Lib Dems or the SNP.

The next election is there to be won for Labour no matter the 2019 result, millions of votes or Scottish seats and Starmer will have to perform on the night.
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
Andy, Blair won a landslide by uniting the left and right and basically arguing he will shift the party to the centre and there would a trickle down where everyone would feel a difference. And I actually think they did

But there’s numerous data and studies that shows people in the North, Scotland, Wales and the midlands started drifting away as they saw the party no longer represented them.

The cost was Labour haemorrhaged nearly 5 million votes who became stay at home voters or moved to other parties. Course they gained new voters as well as loosing them

This is not some cycle, Andy that parties go through it’s change happening that can be explained and it goes right to the heart of why brexit happened with 60% of Labour constituencies being leave

Course more Labour voters voted remain but it might explain why Starmer is now arguing for workers to be paid more and really work towards the seats outside the metropolitan areas

The landscape is changing quite rapidly right now
Sorry, missed this as wasn't tagged/ didn't get the notification.

I was only about 15 when Blair came in, but reading back I don't think Blair united the left and the right, as there were not many voting for parties left of Labour as there wasn't really any, and the Tories were still very right of Labour, as were millions of people. Hence why Tories still got 10m votes, and Lib Dem got 5m, which combined was more than Labours 13.5m (all in 1997). He did capture the centre though, the most important votes, or enough of them combined with the left to beat those of the right, which is the point I keep banging on about. It's simple maths, you need to take the voters the opposition needs who are at the edge of their political compass/spectrum.

Uniting the left and the centre or maybe even the centre right is a good thing, I think, well it is if you sit somewhere centre left and accept that's the only alternative to having the Tory right (or quite far right as they are now). The UK shifted right with the Brexit vote, Farage, UKIP, Brexit Party etc, it gave it a voice, and they were shouting much louder than the greens, it's crap, but it happened. I think social media causes this problem too, as the far right are much louder, or at least they are better at riling up people into their crap.

Labour were always going to decline after that initial win, and the Iraq war and recession didn't help of course. But of course if Labour had not been in power we would have still gone to the war (all the tories voted for it), and had the recession (largely started by the US, out of our control). What I mean by that is there will always be things which happen which will make life exceptionally hard for who is in charge. The Tories have that now, with Covid, the war, energy crisis, brexit, inflation etc. Yeah, of course they made a hash of all of that (maybe bar supporting Ukraine, they've done ok on that), but even if Labour had been in charge (or anyone) it would have still been a pretty rough few years.

I just think a certain set of voters are easily led (lots of these in red wall seats, on the far right, I meet loads of them each week), and if they get rattled enough (big turnouts in recent elections and brexit etc) then they can make a bit of a mess. There are a lot of them in the shadows, a lot more than you may think. Then if this cage rattling happens when Labour lose the centre then they're screwed.

Loads of Tories voted remain mind, there are a lot of people who vote Tory who think they're middle class or rich (but aren't), but don't realise the Tory party is using them as pawns. They're daft enough to fall into this trap, but when things really get messy they will realise their errors and move to the opposite side who they voted for. I know a lot of people in this position who voted tory and brexit, who now feel a bit conned, they're not far right or so dumb that they cannot realise a mistake. Loads of them I have spoken to are good friends or acquaintances who have said they won't vote Tory again and I don't doubt them (not anymore).

I'd rather it was all as left as some on here want, and I have nothing against what they push for or the policies (of them or Corbyn etc), but I just don't think we've ever going to get that anytime soon, as there are nowhere near enough people who think like that, to win an effective two horse race. It's ****, but we need to accept it's ****, and do what we can with that.

PR could fix the two-horse race problem, but it would also hand a lot of seats to some absolute far-right clowns, who are even worse than the Tories. It may break the Tories in half, but the likelihood is they would still work together, as they would have to, and they would do anything to get control.

I think the landscape of people's views is really changing for the better (after the black hole of 2016-2020), but the population is getting older, and we need to convince those older folk come to the red side, as historically they are heavily only going to vote for themselves.
 

exiledinboro

Well-known member
Those polls look like they’re levelling out now

The Tories have the Raab saga dragging on and are desperately trying to deny they’re looking at the EU deal and specifically a “Swiss style” arrangement.

Starmer was telling business leaders yesterday that they need to wean itself off foreign labour and invest in technology and wages need to rise in what can only be a post brexit plan
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
Those polls look like they’re levelling out now

The Tories have the Raab saga dragging on and are desperately trying to deny they’re looking at the EU deal and specifically a “Swiss style” arrangement.

Starmer was telling business leaders yesterday that they need to wean itself off foreign labour and invest in technology and wages need to rise in what can only be a post brexit plan
They will level out, for reasons you say, but that's also the final dead cat bounce. It's good to see that no matter how many PM's the Tories throw at this, it is still a dead cat. The gap now is wider than I expected to be honest, only slightly mind, and I don't see any reason why it could narrow further. Maybe an end to the Ukraine war, settling markets, but I don't think they'll have enough time after this to steady the ship enough to turn into many votes, that ship has sailed so to speak.

The brexit thing has pretty much aligned what the parties will have to push for, albeit neither will frame it that way. It has to be the same thing really, as they're targeting the same voters, and neither will want to lose them.

The Tories have to get a better deal, and tie closer to the EU otherwise nothing they plan economically will remotely work. No matter how many times they say Brexit is ok, every single trade chart, GDP chart, and recession chart says otherwise. I can't see Rishi pinning himself to stick with the same crap deal, he's a Tory, but he's not daft, or at least as not as daft as the others. The Tories will play down how close the deal is to the EU.

Labour know that they can't push for rejoining, or joining the SM or CU again, as this would just stir up the brexit voter hornet's nest again, so they will just go for closer ties. They will play down any hope of SM/ CU etc. I now actually think they have enough of a lead where they could push for SM or CU, but it would make the next GE much tighter, and probably mean losing the one after that, which I think is why they won't do it. They know they need to be in for 10 years, to actually get some ok growth, as the first 5 will be pretty much recovery time. They won't want to hand the Tories an open goal in 2030, they will want that for themselves.

We do need to wean off a reliance on foreign labour, especially basic roles, especially on the road we're pretty much forced down. It makes sense to get our own people trained to fill such roles as effectively we're currently wasting some of our own resources. This could be getting people fit to work again, or training in other areas. We will still need to rely on importing specific expertise mind. I expect we will have to pay higher wages for such roles, to convince some of our lot to get back into work, or move fields to work in higher-demand sectors.
 

BoroFur

Well-known member
The City of Chester by-election is in one weeks time on 1st December.

6,000 majority for Labour at the 2019 GE but the MP Chris Matheson resigned in October after accusations of sexual misconduct and a recommendation from the Indepenent Expert Panel that he be suspended from the House of Commons for four weeks.

Should be a reasonable barometer.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
The City of Chester by-election is in one weeks time on 1st December.

6,000 majority for Labour at the 2019 GE but the MP Chris Matheson resigned in October after accusations of sexual misconduct and a recommendation from the Indepenent Expert Panel that he be suspended from the House of Commons for four weeks.

Should be a reasonable barometer.
Indeed it will as well next mays by elections. I think that might be the trigger for a ge as the tories will want rid of sunak if the tories are heading toward a wipe out
 
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