Well There We Have It, The Easy 'Oven Ready Deal' that Never Was...

Lefty

Well-known member
https://www.turbulenttimes.co.uk/ is what I read. Actually written by someone pro brexit, but you wouldn't guess by the way he gets stuck into BoJo and company.

Yeah, in my personal experience Dr Richard North is good. He is part of a longtime Eurosceptic intellectual ciircle. Richard is polite and engaging (unlike his son who is intelligent but mad as a box of frogs). He was the lead author on the only detailed, thought through Brexit plan I have ever seen. Several times post referendum I had questions on it and he was quick to answer me, point to other reading or source documents and explain his reasoning. He is a long time eurosceptic from deeply held legitimate concerns about the long term effect the EU might have on the power of the British people to effect change on their own lives at a local level and the ratchet effect of bad ECJ rulings.

What he does acknowledge is the value of a lot of the Trade structure the EU has devised. It is difficult not to, the more you understand about it the more impressed you become. Unfortunately not many Brexiters have bothered to do this. If they had then even if they still wanted to leave they would have been saying, hold on, this is going to be bloody complicated to extricate ourselves from without causing a lot of damage, Brexit is in fact not a thing but a process, so let's make a detailed plan before we start a clock ticking.

However, I'm not sure North is going to be of particular insight into the negotiation process, compared to some of the other people I've linked to who have been advising and assisting Parliamentary groups and, as in the case of Dmitry Grozoubinski, has actually negotiated Trade Deals both with the EU and for the EU in the past, or Peter Unguaphorn who was 14 years at the WTO Secretariat in a very senior capacity.
 

Adi_Dem

Well-known member
Because he bounced the Labour party into supporting it, it contributed massively to the election loss but since he won the leadership election he hasn't mentioned it again.

It’s very deliberate. It’s why he won’t ask a Brexit question at PMQs. It’s where Johnson desperately wants him to go because it’s the only ground he feels comfortable and can grandstand on. Very wise and savvy move not to interrupt while the government sets itself on fire.

@Laughing - I concur with what Lefty said and would point in particular to this thread which I think is excellent:

 

Lefty

Well-known member
Because he bounced the Labour party into supporting it, it contributed massively to the election loss but since he won the leadership election he hasn't mentioned it again.

He didn't 'bounce' the Labour Party into it, it is what he wanted and also the wish of the overwhelming majority of both Labour Members and Labour voters. The blame for the election fiasco is Corbyn and his surrounding pro brexit cadre of Milne and co. who went out of their way to put out opposing messages whenever a pro remain or at least peoples vote stance was taken.

I was there at the march when the Tories were defeated on crucial votes in the house, mate. I know Starmer and McDonnell meant what they said and I know certain well placed individuals were working against the wishes of the majority of members.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
It’s very deliberate. It’s why he won’t ask a Brexit question at PMQs. It’s where Johnson desperately wants him to go because it’s the only ground he feels comfortable and can grandstand on. Very wise and savvy move not to interrupt while the government sets itself on fire.

@Laughing - I concur with what Lefty said and would point in particular to this thread which I think is excellent:


Henig, like the others, have been great follows for the last 3-4 years. It has been quite staggering finding out just how stupid and ignorant our MP’s, our full time paid professional MP’s have been on the most important issue facing the country for 40 years. Most ignorant have been the Brexiters unfortunately. I’m astonished that until at least a couple of months not even the cabinet ministers seemed to understand as much as I did in November 2016 just by following these experts on Twitter.

It’s been grimly amusing watching the likes of Pete North have their meltdowns at the rank incompetence of the Brexit MP’s, just as many Remainers have had. It has in fact been worse for them because Remainers have merely shifted along the scale from disappointment to despair, which are at least in the same neighbourhood of emotions. The poor old flexciters have had to cope with a quantum leap from jubilation to disaster with the added ingredient of betrayal.
 
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BlindBoyGrunt

Well-known member
He didn't 'bounce' the Labour Party into it, it is what he wanted and also the wish of the overwhelming majority of both Labour Members and Labour voters. The blame for the election fiasco is Corbyn and his surrounding pro brexit cadre of Milne and co. who went out of their way to put out opposing messages whenever a pro remain or at least peoples vote stance was taken.

I was there at the march when the Tories were defeated on crucial votes in the house, mate. I know Starmer and McDonnell meant what they said and I know certain well placed individuals were working against the wishes of the majority of members.
I disagree, Corbyn promised to respect the brexit result but to negotiate to leave with membership of the free market and customs union. It was Starmer's Peoples Vote that startled the red wall, and Labour went on to lose 60 seats in those areas.
 

Adi_Dem

Well-known member
I disagree, Corbyn promised to respect the brexit result but to negotiate to leave with membership of the free market and customs union. It was Starmer's Peoples Vote that startled the red wall, and Labour went on to lose 60 seats in those areas.

So, just to be clear: it was Starmer rather than Corbyn that was responsible for losing those seats? That’s what you’re saying?
 

Cooper671

Well-known member
If it was all about Corbyn and not Brexit, why did the waves of areas that voted Labour in 2017, led by Corbyn then turn Tory?

It's not rocket science.

Labour got spooked by the Lib Dems possibly taking some remain votes and changed tact. That left an open goal for the Tories and they hoovered up the Labour Leave votes. Labour instead of running scared of losing some remainers should have respected the result, like they promised. Labour Remainers on polling day wouldn't have leaked in any great numbers to the Lib Dems. Faced with a Labour Leave or Tory Leave government they would have stuck. At the same time not losing their Leave voters.

All you have to do is take a look at the seats they lost, what the brexit vote was in them areas to get your answer.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
I find it a bit odd that Corbyn and Labour's approach to a people's vote wasn't more acceptable to the electorate. I can't speak for everyone, but I regret my vote to leave, and would have changed that to remain in the event of a people's vote. The deal would have had to have been exceptional for me to continue to vote leave, and it would have to be.. how shall we say, oven ready.

I feel, but don't know, that a lot of leave voters would probably change their ballot paper too, given the absolute cock up the government have made of negotiations.

I don't necessarily agree with Lefty's diagram that the huge majority of people voted solely on xenophobic lines, but anyone claiming now that leaving is still a good idea places racism above all else.

With a good deal and leaving the political union, I can see why that would attract people, I am not sure what is left to attract folks to leaving the EU now, except racism. I don't like the EU political machine, but I despise the current UK political machine.
 

Corcaigh_the_Cat

Well-known member
I agree with some of what you say Cooper, but did you not notice the shift in the media position after the scare of 2017?

Corbyn was given comparatively decent treatment prior to the first election, the result put the wind up the establishment and didn't we see the full machine in play on the run up to the 2019 election?

They created a bogeyman with little debate over policy and detail of spending, it was reflected in the debate on this board.

Propaganda plays such an important role, how many switched allegiance due to it, I know a fair few on here did judging by their pre and post election arguments.
 

bear66

Well-known member
I agree with some of what you say Cooper, but did you not notice the shift in the media position after the scare of 2017?

Corbyn was given comparatively decent treatment prior to the first election, the result put the wind up the establishment and didn't we see the full machine in play on the run up to the 2019 election?

They created a bogeyman with little debate over policy and detail of spending, it was reflected in the debate on this board.

Propaganda plays such an important role, how many switched allegiance due to it, I know a fair few on here did judging by their pre and post election arguments.
I'm sure I read somewhere that that 1.8 million people who voted Tory, mainly in red wall areas, had never voted before. So it was a two pronged attack. Encourage some of the leavers who didn't vote in GEs and dis Corbyn.
 

Cooper671

Well-known member
I agree with some of what you say Cooper, but did you not notice the shift in the media position after the scare of 2017?

Corbyn was given comparatively decent treatment prior to the first election, the result put the wind up the establishment and didn't we see the full machine in play on the run up to the 2019 election?

They created a bogeyman with little debate over policy and detail of spending, it was reflected in the debate on this board.

Propaganda plays such an important role, how many switched allegiance due to it, I know a fair few on here did judging by their pre and post election arguments.

There was some pretty harsh treatment dished out to Corbyrn pre 2017 election though. I know because I went through my Facebook and seen some stories I had shared (I voted Labour 2017) so the stories I was sharing we anti media stories.

Still the areas that Labour lost.. why would the anti corbyn stories only take effect in pro brexit labour areas not pro remain?I think to dismiss the brexit factor like further up and lay the blame at Corbyns door isnt the full story.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
I have no idea what Gibson would do now Cooper, and my support of boro is a bit deeper than the owner, manager or players.
 

Corcaigh_the_Cat

Well-known member
It wasn't 'only' anti Corbyn stories, as I said, I agree with much of what you said.

It's going to take some shifting back to get into power, we've got some years of regression to come in the country, increasing unemployment, wealth inequality and more erosion of democracy. Still, it's not a shift away from the norm of the last four decades.

The Age of Ignorance.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
I suspect the 2019 election was a perfect storm for the tories, brexit and a rabid press, that is the only explanation for Johnson's majority. It's not like we didn't know what we were getting is it. It has to be a combination.
 

go-nads!

Well-known member
I suspect the 2019 election was a perfect storm for the tories, brexit and a rabid press, that is the only explanation for Johnson's majority. It's not like we didn't know what we were getting is it. It has to be a combination.

a total job was done on democracy, tying in nationalism, patriotism and ignorance. You had a press that castigated one leader for just about every single flaw they could find, where there wasn’t a flaw they made them up. You had another leader with a whole host of negative personality traits and skeletons in his closet that were just ignored and there was no scrutinisation.

You had a party who had no apparent manifesto other than “get it done” and again the ideological nature of their past policy and actions completely ignored.

a progressive manifesto which at its core in social values like protecting the NHS was ignored by the media. A sensible compromise on Brexit was ignored or simply misconstrued.

Labour were blamed for the lack of Brexit progress when it was the Conservative Party who had voted against it. Again it cannot be stated enough, the Conservatives were against Brexit, Johnson was against Brexit, but in the most cynical of power grabs this massively important factor is forgotten.

Then you have the total fabrication of facts with the Facebook campaigns and the like, thousands of fact checks proved the Conservatives were lying, Labour not at all.
You have the undermining within the party and I believe that this is exceptionally cynical and needs investigating.

we have a whole democratic process open to abuse and it is getting worse. There are no standards, there are no penalties for corrupting, in fact at the moment the opposite is true, you are rewarded for the despicable and lack of morality.

The rich and influential are getting richer, the standard of living for the rest of us is going down. Education standards down, life expectancy down, crime up, national and individual debt up etc etc.

it’s an absolute crying shame what the Conservatives have done in a decade and it’s going to get worse because a number of voters could not see through the lies and bull****.

anyone who voted Conservative after voting Labour in the past (a party that actually tries to represent them) just to get Brexit done should hang their heads in shame. They were gullible but worse, they were unsympathetic class traitors.
 
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