Well There We Have It, The Easy 'Oven Ready Deal' that Never Was...


Well-known member
If you say so.

I think same as Cons saw an election before the Dec 31st Brexit deadline as good for them, the Lib Dems delusional leadership genuinely thought they'd have a brilliant election and win loads of remain seats.

I don't think "decent" is the right word. If Labour had a right wing leader then maybe the Lib Dems and Change UK would have been interested in working together. While Labour had nationalisation and raising taxation policies I don't think any leader no matter how good would have won those two parties over.


Well-known member
What's the logic?

Starmer isn't saying anything about taking us in to EFTA? Doubt he'd do such a thing without a mandate. And that's pretending he has any chance of forming a gov.

I know Starmer isn't saying anything about EFTA, he isn't saying anything about Brexit, full stop. He can't stop it, so he is accepting the situation and letting Brexit be owned, lock stock and barrel, for good or ill, by the Conservatives. It's politics, it's tactical, it's about biding your time as things shake out, not jumping the gun when you don't need to.

I'm using EFTA as shorthand for effectively rejoining the Single Market. It could be like Switzerland with 200+ bilateral agreements (good god) or EFTA, but in essence it is the Single Market. EFTA is just the easiest way.

I agree, he wouldn't, or certainly shouldn't, do it without a mandate, although in my view, Brexiters have no mandate for the Brexit they are foisting on us. That would mean it would have to be in his manifesto and a major part of it with plenty of discussion at the very least, to be able to take us in directly. My preference is that he would pledge another referendum on applying to join EFTA/EEA. This might seem crazy after the last 4 years and the unsatisfactory position a referendum has put us in. Right now it might also seem like a real turn off for fed up voters who recently after all just voted to 'get brexit done'. However, going in or out of European Trade Bloc's has been established as a referendum thing now, so I think if we were to take this step, it almost has to be via another referendum.

The difference is of course that at least Starmer will do it competently and EFTA/EEA membership is a defined thing. What it is, is known. EFTA mean EFTA isn't just a slogan it is a trading arrangement, with rules. It's not a load of vague contradictory promises foisted on an ignorant public by equally ignorant campaigners, not held to account by just as ignorant journalists. Now, journalists are better informed, as are a lot more of the public.

As for my logic, well, it is true a lot can happen in a year in politics let alone four, but I don't think it is too much of a stretch to think that in four years time the economy is going to be in a lot of difficulty. Every single credible forecast suggested, even without Covid, that we could be hit as bad if not worse than the 2009 financial crash. People tend not to want the dickheads who were in charge when something like that happens to remain in charge, so if there is a credible alternative for most, they can pick up their vote.

It is early days, but Starmer looks the part. Johnson is dreadful. The Tories will dump him, if indeed he doesn't jump, at least a year before the election. Apart from Sunak, none of the Cabinet seem remotely competent or likeable and Sunak will not seem as likeable when he has to start raising taxes. I know you thought your use of the word 'pretending' was pithy, but really, your 'pretending' it isn't at least plausible makes you a knob.

In addition, EFTA is at least a compromise position. For Remainers it was about the economy and this again provides solutions to problems we had solved, but reintroduced on leaving the EU. For Brexiters their victory can be a little less pyrrhic.