Well There We Have It, The Easy 'Oven Ready Deal' that Never Was...

Adi_Dem

Well-known member
a total job was done on democracy, tying in nationalism, patriotism and ignorance. You had a press that castigated one leader for just about every single flaw they could find, where there wasn’t a flaw they made them up. You had another leader with a whole host of negative personality traits and skeletons in his closet that were just ignored and there was no scrutinisation.

You had a party who had no apparent manifesto other than “get it done” and again the ideological nature of their past policy and actions completely ignored.

a progressive manifesto which at its core in social values like protecting the NHS was ignored by the media. A sensible compromise on Brexit was ignored or simply misconstrued.

Labour were blamed for the lack of Brexit progress when it was the Conservative Party who had voted against it. Again it cannot be stated enough, the Conservatives were against Brexit, Johnson was against Brexit, but in the most cynical of power grabs this massively important factor is forgotten.

Then you have the total fabrication of facts with the Facebook campaigns and the like, thousands of fact checks proved the Conservatives were lying, Labour not at all.
You have the undermining within the party and I believe that this is exceptionally cynical and needs investigating.

we have a whole democratic process open to abuse and it is getting worse. There are no standards, there are no penalties for corrupting, in fact at the moment the opposite is true, you are rewarded for the despicable and lack of morality.

The rich and influential are getting richer, the standard of living for the rest of us is going down. Education standards down, life expectancy down, crime up, national and individual debt up etc etc.

it’s an absolute crying shame what the Conservatives have done in a decade and it’s going to get worse because a number of voters could not see through the lies and bull****.

anyone who voted Conservative after voting Labour in the past (a party that actually tries to represent them) just to get Brexit done should hang their heads in shame. They were gullible but worse, they were unsympathetic class traitors.

Not to mention that all of this began with a fraudulent referendum built on electoral and data breaches.
 

go-nads!

Well-known member

Lefty

Well-known member
Corbyn warned everyone the Tories were planning to sell off the NHS - how everyone laughed and poured scorn - watch what happens next folks


🐔

It wasn't just Corbyn, it was all the Labour party, the other opposition parties and even John Major.
 

MoggasDog

Active member
The Labour leadership were awful throughout.
We had May, the weakest and most undermined PM in living memory, on the ropes and Labour didnt lay a glove on her. The SNP were the only ones in the commons opposing and were the de facto opposition party.

It was a single issue GE but Labour tried to say that it wasnt with incredible manifesto pledges around broadband etc. It was obvious that Corbyn was looking for some Lexit - under pressure from Len McCluskey(who seemed to have far too much of Corbyns attention) and controlled by Seamus Milne - that he could take credit for. He claimed to be all for 'remain and reform' but it was obviously a lie.
Starmer as Brexit Spokesman was repeatedly contradicted by Corbyn - particularly in regards to a second referendum. Labour as a socialist, internationalist party(membership polled at over 70% remain) should have rejected Corbyn for a lack of support for remain and had a leadership contest when the tories did. I really believe that, with Starmer in against Johnson in the GE, a Labour Coalition would have walked it and the whole brexit mess would be just a memory.

A remain coalition was on offer from the SNP(even though Brexit actually guaranteed to increase their power and chances of independence), Plaid Cymru but, with shocking hubris, the Libs and Labour refused - this killed all chances of any remain because it split the remain vote.
We were left with this corrupt gang of public school boys backed by a corrupt right-wing media. A national disaster but totally and utterly self-inflicted.
 

BlindBoyGrunt

Well-known member
The Labour leadership were awful throughout.
We had May, the weakest and most undermined PM in living memory, on the ropes and Labour didnt lay a glove on her.
I do believe she lost one or two votes, plus her majority despite half the labour party trying to throw the election.
 

Cooper671

Well-known member
with Starmer in against Johnson in the GE, a Labour Coalition would have walked it and the whole brexit mess would be just a memory.

Not a chance Labour would have walked it. Again look at the areas they lost their seats. It doesn't matter that the membership voted 70% remain, thats 30% that didnt plus millions of labour leave voters who aren't members. Labour were seen as a party trying to stop brexit at the GE (Despite the offer of another referendum) by leave voters. By campaigning remain outright, (which they may aswell have) they still lose all them Labour Leave votes. I don't see how their share of the vote increases by campaigning for reamin, i do if they campaigned for leave though
 

newusername

Active member
The Labour leadership were awful throughout.
100% correct.
Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act the Conservatives required 2/3rds of MPs to vote for an election, with 650 MPs they needed 434 votes for.
The got 437 of which 291 were Conservative, 10 DUP, 9 Indpendent & 127 turkeys voting for Christmas.
They should've at least abstained and left a minority Con government to dangle in the wind ineffectually. Within 4 months we'd have crashed out of the EU & been in the teeth of a pandemic.

It was a single issue GE but Labour tried to say that it wasnt with incredible manifesto pledges around broadband etc.
I disagree, the Cons wanted people to think it was but it wasn't a single issue general election, now the Cons are in power they aren't going to stop when they 'get Brexit done'. They will do what they always do and also press on with the Boundary Commission reform making it even harder for a non-Conservative government to win a general election.

A remain coalition was on offer from the SNP(even though Brexit actually guaranteed to increase their power and chances of independence), Plaid Cymru but, with shocking hubris, the Libs and Labour refused - this killed all chances of any remain because it split the remain vote.
We were left with this corrupt gang of public school boys backed by a corrupt right-wing media. A national disaster but totally and utterly self-inflicted.

The coalition was on condition of Corbyn stepping down, you can't let other political parties dictate who your leader is however flawed he was in the end.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
They should've at least abstained and left a minority Con government to dangle in the wind ineffectually.

The Cons would have just called a vote to repeal the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. They'd only need a simple majority for that and they'd have been backed up by the DUP, Lib Dems, Change UK and SNP.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
It is, yes, although there is a logic to it, which is where I’ve gone wrong in the last four or five years, underestimating stupidity.

What's the logic?

Starmer isn't saying anything about taking us in to EFTA? Doubt he'd do such a thing without a mandate. And that's pretending he has any chance of forming a gov.
 

newusername

Active member
The Cons would have just called a vote to repeal the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. They'd only need a simple majority for that and they'd have been backed up by the DUP, Lib Dems, Change UK and SNP.
Not including Labour the Cons got 310 voting to support an election. They would've needed another 16 votes for a simple majority.

No Lib Dems, Change UK or SNP voted for an election, so why would they change their stance to support a bill which would have the same effect?
Especially the Lib Dems as this bill was their one tangible result of being in a coalition with the Cons.

More likely there would've been 16+ Labour rebels, Hoey, Campbell, Skinner et al that ignored Corbyn & voted with the Conservatives because of their promise to 'get Brexit done'.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
Not including Labour the Cons got 310 voting to support an election. They would've needed another 16 votes for a simple majority.

No Lib Dems, Change UK or SNP voted for an election, so why would they change their stance to support a bill which would have the same effect?
Especially the Lib Dems as this bill was their one tangible result of being in a coalition with the Cons.

181 abstentions in the vote on the bill to actually call the Dec 2019 election - after the SNP and Lib Dems had announced that they both wanted an early election.

They'd backed Labour in to a corner - in hindsight I doubt the result could actually have gone much worse than it did but you can understand at the time why Labour wouldn't want to start the campaign with a load of "Labour running scared of having an election!" headlines...
 

Adi_Dem

Well-known member
Great in theory but it's not working.


The tories have got the media sown up, so the Labour leadership holding back from criticising just means there's very little public scrutiny.

Starmer needs to start pulling his weight, can't just leave it all for Burnham and Rashford to do.

5 days prior to this poll, the very same poll had a very different reading. I wouldn't attach too much weight to it at this stage. Besides, this is a long game.

Is it always wise or is it sometimes better to oppose, to prevent corruption or take a moral stance?

On the narrow issue of Brexit it is very much the right thing to do. There is nothing to be gained by Labour becoming embroiled in that car crash. They are applying pressure and holding to account on the right issues in my view.
 

newusername

Active member
181 abstentions in the vote on the bill to actually call the Dec 2019 election - after the SNP and Lib Dems had announced that they both wanted an early election.

They'd backed Labour in to a corner - in hindsight I doubt the result could actually have gone much worse than it did but you can understand at the time why Labour wouldn't want to start the campaign with a load of "Labour running scared of having an election!" headlines...
Corbyn had already said he/Labour would support an early election, 'if no deal was taken off the table', the Libs & SNP were arguing over the timing of the election.

If Corbyn had been a decent leader he could have rallied the party round him and won the support of the other opposition parties to just hang fire.
It had to have been obvious to him that the only reason the Cons wanted an election was they thought they could make Brexit the main discussion point, something they had a simple & clear position on and that Labour appeared muddled.
 
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