To think we played Leicester in a final

It's not possible to compare the two sides now. Leicester are miles ahead and seemingly set to stay amongst the clubs challenging for Champions League football.

The huge investment has clearly been the catalyst but it must be stated that they've had a great plan and stuck to it. Their training facility is top quality, recruitment outstanding and coaching as good as it gets with Rodgers.

Leicester City are potentially making the City of Leicester all about football. Their rugby club is a shadow of it's former self currently.
 
Leicester has a decent catchment area and attracted very wealthy owners, guess it's just one of those things. Maybe one day if things pick up for our region we will be able to attract similar investment, we might be waiting a while though!
 
bevoboro said:
Leicester has a decent catchment area and attracted very wealthy owners, guess it's just one of those things. Maybe one day if things pick up for our region we will be able to attract similar investment, we might be waiting a while though!
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Right this is total rubbish as look at Barnsley and their owners or sunlun this idea that no one would invest in us is total fantasy. Gibbo doesn’t want it is more the issue but I think we’d have plenty of interested parties.
 
Leicester give me hope that with sound management and recruitment we can get back to where we were c2005.....it's a big IF but proves it's not impossible. We would need foreign investment and a bit of patience, something that seems unlikely. However, as a sensible businessman perhaps Uncle Steve could be tempted into selling a stake.?...Again unlikely! It's the hope that kills you 😂
 
zorro_mfc said:
Right this is total rubbish as look at Barnsley and their owners or sunlun this idea that no one would invest in us is total fantasy. Gibbo doesn’t want it is more the issue but I think we’d have plenty of interested parties.
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Zorro, I used to have similar sentiments- until the state of our finances have been forensically examined by indeedido. And sobering reading it made. I doubt Gibbo could even give the club away- he would have the debt needing settling which I believe is more than the worth of the club.

I would be very wary of outside interest due to the financial state we have.Why would anyone be interested?

It is very much like Gibbo is stuck with us - as we are with him!
 
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Nosmo-King said:
Zorro, I used to have similar sentiments- until the state of our finances have been forensically examined by indeedido. And sobering reading it made. I doubt Gibbo could even give the club away- he would have the debt needing settling which I believe is more than the worth of the club.

I would be very wary of outside interest due to the financial state we have.Why would anyone be interested?

It is very much like Gibbo is stuck with us - as we are with him!
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Is this because Gibson owns all the assets rather than the Football club, but the debts belong to the club?
 
zorro_mfc said:
Right this is total rubbish as look at Barnsley and their owners or sunlun this idea that no one would invest in us is total fantasy. Gibbo doesn’t want it is more the issue but I think we’d have plenty of interested parties.
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Barnsley have rich owners certainly but they have yet to invest large sums into the Club. As for the owner of Sunderland we have yet to see how much Dreyfus is prepared to invest.
 
I was going to post about this but I always remember when we were vying with them for promotion - we got an injury time penalty and causal Marvin Emnes had his penalty saved. I think this was the start of two clubs who had been quite equal goon on very different paths!

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk

Match Report: Leicester City 1 Middlesbrough 0

MIDDLESBROUGH crashed to defeat against Leicester City this evening.
www.thenorthernecho.co.uk www.thenorthernecho.co.uk
 
I admit to posting this without even bothering to check Google, but didn't Leicester come close to going bust and paid back some ridiculously low amount of their debts? If so, that helped to clear the decks prior to (albeit diligently done) foreign investment.
 
Broke my heart 3 times Leicester, 88 on the final day, 97 Cup Final amd a student nurse who was studying in Leicester dumped me in 96!!!!

Never liked the place
 
Otto42 said:
Is this because Gibson owns all the assets rather than the Football club, but the debts belong to the club?
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Gibson O'Neill the Group holding company, holds the 100% ownership of Bulkhaul, Middelsbrough FC and Rockliffe, each as limited companies.
Steve Gibson owns 75% and Mike O'Neill owns 25% of Gibson O'Neill. Broadly that means they own the operating companies within.
This includes the assets, but equally the liabilities.

They are both very wealthy men as a result and good luck to them both.
Had Steve not been so fanatical about Boro - and thought it a decent long term investment punt - then they both would be a lot better off without Boro, that much is indisputable.
Middlesbrough FC owe the parent Group £116m plus whatever they lose this season which is liable to be well in excess of £20m despite the reduction in wage bill, because of Covid.
Middlesbough FC's assets are outweighed by its liabilities (including the money owed to GO'N Group) by £86m (plus whatever we lose this season).
The Club as an entity is a complete financial basket case.
If Steve (and Mike) gave the club away, whoever they gave it to would own all the assets, but would still owe Gibson O'Neill £116m plus this year's loss. They would still only own something that had book value of MINUS £86m (plus this year's loss)

Bulkhaul is so successful that the GO'N Group overall remains a solid operation. Effectively Bulkhaul covers the debt of MFC because Bulkhaul's positive value (reserves) enables it to and Bulkhaul profit refreshes/finances this.
The Nett Liability of MFC is actually covered by the huge nett Asset value of Bulkhaul (and a little by Rockliffe) within the Group.
GO'N's Balance Sheet would show £116m (plus) greater nett shareholder value if somebody would come in and buy the MFC equity £64m and assume the MFC Undertakings of £116m plus. I'm pretty sure Gibson would be delighted with this.
Nobody in their right mind would do this.

Leicester is no more attractive on the face of it than Middlesbrough as a club and certainly not as attractive on the face of it as a Leeds United, or a Newcastle United.
We have similar pulling power/population to draw from and are similarly distance from local rivals. We have similar crowds, stadiums etc etc.

Leicester got a magnificent investor in the Thai family. Investors who have hired better people to make better decisions.
Leicester have a nett asset value of £73m (£160m better than us)
They have double the equity in their club (injected legally by owners) and nearly all of their P&L balance deficit in the Balance Sheet is from last season and Covid where they lost over £60m.
They owe their Group equivalent £137m, so even more than MFC does.
They also have Bank debt of £65m, which we do not.

Overall then what does this tell us.

1. Leicester have a richer owner who underwrites their business with Group support.
2. Leicester's owners have pumped equity into the club on a large scale and this makes the Club a genuine going concern.
3. Leicester's owner has appointed people who have made excellent decisions. They have recruited superbly, traded wisely and created a squad that has performed in the league like we never have and is worth an incredible amount of money not even reflected on the Books. They are transformed from being like us to being not like us at all.
4. Leicester's position is still fragile. A couple more seasons of financial results like the last one and their position will look rather different.

5. Steve Gibson on the one hand is the only reason that MFC is still playing. Without the financial strength that Bulkhaul provides, the model of guaranteeing the systemic book losses MFC makes every year outside the Premier league, would simply not be possible.
6. Steve Gibson COMPLETELY owns and controls the Club and makes every significant decision. This means who works for it, with what scope, under what strategy, with what budget. He makes all the calls. He is entitled to, but he does.
7. Steve can only look to himself as to why his decisions have taken Middlesbrough to the football and financial position they are in, while Leicester's decisions have taken them to theirs.

8. It is about money, of course it is. But it is about so much more than just money.

9. Of course there are clubs who are in worse positions than Boro.
They may have the debt, but without the committed owner.
They may not have a big catchment area or passion and hence limited potential.
They may have no stadium, no training facilities, no assets whatsoever.
They may never be able to attract an owner who can see potential.
There are definitely clubs I would not swap with, but there are many examples of similar clubs far far better led. Leicester are just one.

10. For now, in the real world, Steve Gibson is stuck with us, as nobody else will assume the debt, let alone pay him for the privilege of assuming it from him.
And equally, we are stuck with him, meaning there is nothing we can do about his catastrophic decision making since 2016, or what he will do from now on; or for that matter whether he "sells up", who to, or whether he injects equity into the club or not.
I make no apology for wishing passionately there was another way, but I just can't see it at the moment.
 
Excellent analysis once more, indeedido. It really spells out the issues we have and face.

I doubt collectively the players value in the transfer market would come anywhere near the indebtedness we have. Serious issues
 
indeedido said:
Gibson O'Neill the Group holding company, holds the 100% ownership of Bulkhaul, Middelsbrough FC and Rockliffe, each as limited companies.
Steve Gibson owns 75% and Mike O'Neill owns 25% of Gibson O'Neill. Broadly that means they own the operating companies within.
This includes the assets, but equally the liabilities.

They are both very wealthy men as a result and good luck to them both.
Had Steve not been so fanatical about Boro - and thought it a decent long term investment punt - then they both would be a lot better off without Boro, that much is indisputable.
Middlesbrough FC owe the parent Group £116m plus whatever they lose this season which is liable to be well in excess of £20m despite the reduction in wage bill, because of Covid.
Middlesbough FC's assets are outweighed by its liabilities (including the money owed to GO'N Group) by £86m (plus whatever we lose this season).
The Club as an entity is a complete financial basket case.
If Steve (and Mike) gave the club away, whoever they gave it to would own all the assets, but would still owe Gibson O'Neill £116m plus this year's loss. They would still only own something that had book value of MINUS £86m (plus this year's loss)

Bulkhaul is so successful that the GO'N Group overall remains a solid operation. Effectively Bulkhaul covers the debt of MFC because Bulkhaul's positive value (reserves) enables it to and Bulkhaul profit refreshes/finances this.
The Nett Liability of MFC is actually covered by the huge nett Asset value of Bulkhaul (and a little by Rockliffe) within the Group.
GO'N's Balance Sheet would show £116m (plus) greater nett shareholder value if somebody would come in and buy the MFC equity £64m and assume the MFC Undertakings of £116m plus. I'm pretty sure Gibson would be delighted with this.
Nobody in their right mind would do this.

Leicester is no more attractive on the face of it than Middlesbrough as a club and certainly not as attractive on the face of it as a Leeds United, or a Newcastle United.
We have similar pulling power/population to draw from and are similarly distance from local rivals. We have similar crowds, stadiums etc etc.

Leicester got a magnificent investor in the Thai family. Investors who have hired better people to make better decisions.
Leicester have a nett asset value of £73m (£160m better than us)
They have double the equity in their club (injected legally by owners) and nearly all of their P&L balance deficit in the Balance Sheet is from last season and Covid where they lost over £60m.
They owe their Group equivalent £137m, so even more than MFC does.
They also have Bank debt of £65m, which we do not.

Overall then what does this tell us.

1. Leicester have a richer owner who underwrites their business with Group support.
2. Leicester's owners have pumped equity into the club on a large scale and this makes the Club a genuine going concern.
3. Leicester's owner has appointed people who have made excellent decisions. They have recruited superbly, traded wisely and created a squad that has performed in the league like we never have and is worth an incredible amount of money not even reflected on the Books. They are transformed from being like us to being not like us at all.
4. Leicester's position is still fragile. A couple more seasons of financial results like the last one and their position will look rather different.

5. Steve Gibson on the one hand is the only reason that MFC is still playing. Without the financial strength that Bulkhaul provides, the model of guaranteeing the systemic book losses MFC makes every year outside the Premier league, would simply not be possible.
6. Steve Gibson COMPLETELY owns and controls the Club and makes every significant decision. This means who works for it, with what scope, under what strategy, with what budget. He makes all the calls. He is entitled to, but he does.
7. Steve can only look to himself as to why his decisions have taken Middlesbrough to the football and financial position they are in, while Leicester's decisions have taken them to theirs.

8. It is about money, of course it is. But it is about so much more than just money.

9. Of course there are clubs who are in worse positions than Boro.
They may have the debt, but without the committed owner.
They may not have a big catchment area or passion and hence limited potential.
They may have no stadium, no training facilities, no assets whatsoever.
They may never be able to attract an owner who can see potential.
There are definitely clubs I would not swap with, but there are many examples of similar clubs far far better led. Leicester are just one.

10. For now, in the real world, Steve Gibson is stuck with us, as nobody else will assume the debt, let alone pay him for the privilege of assuming it from him.
And equally, we are stuck with him, meaning there is nothing we can do about his catastrophic decision making since 2016, or what he will do from now on; or for that matter whether he "sells up", who to, or whether he injects equity into the club or not.
I make no apology for wishing passionately there was another way, but I just can't see it at the moment.
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Excellent explanation of the current position Indeedido.

The only way I can see anyone taking over the club would be through G’ON owners agreeing to effectively write off the debt owed to the holding group. In the short term the debt looks like it will only be going one way too, It is a lot of money to write off, but it may be the owners best bet looking in the longer term, short of ‘getting lucky’ on a promotion and staying there, which is unlikely given where we are.

I hope he can find a way that gives them a return of some of the losses to date and when he eventually leaves the club it is left in the hands of someone safe, rich and trustworthy, like the Thai’s at Leicester are.
 
coluka said:
Excellent explanation of the current position Indeedido.

The only way I can see anyone taking over the club would be through G’ON owners agreeing to effectively write off the debt owed to the holding group. In the short term the debt looks like it will only be going one way too, It is a lot of money to write off, but it may be the owners best bet looking in the longer term, short of ‘getting lucky’ on a promotion and staying there, which is unlikely given where we are.

I hope he can find a way that gives them a return of some of the losses to date and when he eventually leaves the club it is left in the hands of someone safe, rich and trustworthy, like the Thai’s at Leicester are.
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Thanks Col and Nosmo.
Steve is still worth £370m despite the club being so underwater.
I would too like him to be able to lose some of the liability he is carrying within Gibson O'Neill Group, but I'm more bothered about the future of our club.
I'd have thought there could be some room for compromise, if there was a will to find one, to write a lot of money off and to lose control.
Gibson will never do that I'm afraid.
 
zorro_mfc said:
Right this is total rubbish as look at Barnsley and their owners or sunlun this idea that no one would invest in us is total fantasy. Gibbo doesn’t want it is more the issue but I think we’d have plenty of interested parties.
Click to expand...
What have either of the sets of owners at Barnsley and Sunderland achieved thus far? Yes both clubs attracted new ownership but we don't know what their aims and ambitions are just yet. It's a bit foolish to compare them to the Thai ownership at Leicester at this stage.
 
indeedido said:
Thanks Col and Nosmo.
Steve is still worth £370m despite the club being so underwater.
I would too like him to be able to lose some of the liability he is carrying within Gibson O'Neill Group, but I'm more bothered about the future of our club.
I'd have thought there could be some room for compromise, if there was a will to find one, to write a lot of money off and to lose control.
Gibson will never do that I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

He appears a very stubborn man. I occasionally wonder what Mike O’Neill thinks about Steves handling of MFC and the debt owed, but as he has a minority holding he will have little say i’d guess and will no doubt be happy with his personal wealth and Bulkhaul’s success anyway. Steves wealth more than covers the ever increasing debt owed, but a few more fallow years at MFC, then who knows where his thinking will be. They currently have the ability to leave the club debt free, highly saleable to the right owner and walk away still rich and with the fans gratitude. I really can’t see any other way to move the club forward short of taking another personal sizeable financial punt himself, which looks highly unlikely and rarely guarantees the outcome sought anyway.
 
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