Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret
Well-known member
Plus I don't think large scale covid testing is as important as regular temperature tests followed by getting those tested who need it.
The NHS contact-tracing app
- Thread starter kuepper
- Start date
Laughing
Well-known member
I'll have a look at that Dood when available then make a decision. Hopefully they will follow through with this. If they don't they have something to hide!
kuepper
Well-known member
https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/04/cont...hs-cyber-security-tests-12652860/?ito=twitter
I'm no techie but is this how it works in almost plain English?: They have your phone number, it sends them the data dump. 1st half of postcode tells them which phone masts to interrogate to pin you down to 100m2, if they decide to hunt you down. The data dump gives them all the people you've been close to.
I'm no techie but is this how it works in almost plain English?: They have your phone number, it sends them the data dump. 1st half of postcode tells them which phone masts to interrogate to pin you down to 100m2, if they decide to hunt you down. The data dump gives them all the people you've been close to.
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I can't believe some of the crazy paranoia about this app. If you don't want to use it don't download it - you too can be as crazy as David Icke! If you want to use it occasionally then switch on bluetooth/GPS/wi-fi when you feel like leaving a trail, and switch those services off when you're burgling the local off license. Better turn off cell reception too of course. It's possible to triangulate your position using cell tower data to between 500 and 1500 metres (depending on the number of towers). Based on my experience of UK cell reception, half the time they won't have a clue where you area using cell tower data. (Google used to track wi-fi modems when they were scanning using street view - not sure if that's still the case).
The Warner brothers are both extremely intelligent. They run a data science company and both have PhD's. One in quantum physics, the other in quantum computing and he also has a degree in physics.
Apple and Google haven't created an app. They've created a bluetooth API (application programming interface) that any developer can use that should be released this month (I haven't checked since I read the linked article a few weeks ago). It should allow phones to detect other phones in the area, and if the owner permits access, perhaps they could reveal their infection status (i.e. infected, immune, tested negative, tested positive, untested) and they plan on creating a central platform, again that any developer can use.
Their intention is to create API's and a platform that individual governments can use to assist in contact tracing. So the UK app could have used that platform but it wouldn't be a hell of a lot of use unless everyone upgraded their operating systems though. (In other words it's largely useless for this particular pandemic). If someone has an older phone and doesn't update the OS, then the new API wouldn't be much use, and because of existing bluetooth security, the app developer would need to use centralised tracking to compare the positions of the individual phones.
For the record here's what Google and Apple announced.
First, in May, both companies will release APIs that enable interoperability between Android and iOS devices using apps from public health authorities. These official apps will be available for users to download via their respective app stores.
Second, in the coming months, Apple and Google will work to enable a broader Bluetooth-based contact tracing platform by building this functionality into the underlying platforms. This is a more robust solution than an API and would allow more individuals to participate, if they choose to opt in, as well as enable interaction with a broader ecosystem of apps and government health authorities. Privacy, transparency, and consent are of utmost importance in this effort, and we look forward to building this functionality in consultation with interested stakeholders. We will openly publish information about our work for others to analyze.
As far as I can see, the main benefit is that you don't need central infrastructure to track people - which I assume was the goal of Apple and Google. Two phones simply share they fact they're within a few metres of each other without the need for central monitoring. Otherwise it's quite feasible to track people down to within about 1 metre if GPS is active. The irony is Google tracks everyone with an Android phone anyway.
The Warner brothers are both extremely intelligent. They run a data science company and both have PhD's. One in quantum physics, the other in quantum computing and he also has a degree in physics.
Apple and Google haven't created an app. They've created a bluetooth API (application programming interface) that any developer can use that should be released this month (I haven't checked since I read the linked article a few weeks ago). It should allow phones to detect other phones in the area, and if the owner permits access, perhaps they could reveal their infection status (i.e. infected, immune, tested negative, tested positive, untested) and they plan on creating a central platform, again that any developer can use.
Their intention is to create API's and a platform that individual governments can use to assist in contact tracing. So the UK app could have used that platform but it wouldn't be a hell of a lot of use unless everyone upgraded their operating systems though. (In other words it's largely useless for this particular pandemic). If someone has an older phone and doesn't update the OS, then the new API wouldn't be much use, and because of existing bluetooth security, the app developer would need to use centralised tracking to compare the positions of the individual phones.
For the record here's what Google and Apple announced.
First, in May, both companies will release APIs that enable interoperability between Android and iOS devices using apps from public health authorities. These official apps will be available for users to download via their respective app stores.
Second, in the coming months, Apple and Google will work to enable a broader Bluetooth-based contact tracing platform by building this functionality into the underlying platforms. This is a more robust solution than an API and would allow more individuals to participate, if they choose to opt in, as well as enable interaction with a broader ecosystem of apps and government health authorities. Privacy, transparency, and consent are of utmost importance in this effort, and we look forward to building this functionality in consultation with interested stakeholders. We will openly publish information about our work for others to analyze.
As far as I can see, the main benefit is that you don't need central infrastructure to track people - which I assume was the goal of Apple and Google. Two phones simply share they fact they're within a few metres of each other without the need for central monitoring. Otherwise it's quite feasible to track people down to within about 1 metre if GPS is active. The irony is Google tracks everyone with an Android phone anyway.
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Every cell phone scans available cell towers and base stations when you start up the phone (assuming cellular reception is switched on). The phone then determines which tower to use based on the signal strength and your mobile operator. You don't need postal code data to get a fix.
The data about towers is generally available to any app developer, so provided you give an app permissions, they can get a fix on your position to within 500m. I haven't worked in this area for a while, but I believe the accuracy is still that loose. Perhaps the switch to base stations has improved location accuracy, but I'm sure it wouldn't be that precise all the time. To get that level of accuracy you need several cell towers/base stations - the more the merrier.
https://www.mastdata.com/
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Laughing
Well-known member
br14 you have missed the point about triangulation from cell towers v the proposed tracing app. That is, your google data is available to the government only through a court order or the individuals agreement. The contact tracing app will be sending your data to government in the event you are infected and/or come into contact with someone who is infected. There is a big difference.
By all means download the app when it's available and do your bit, I wouldn't be so ready to call someone crazy in a post as technically innacurate as the one you provided.
If you genuinely believe that your locations data and who you come into contact with should reasonably be shared with the government then crack on.
Let me give you one example of where the data can be misused:
A crime is committed, and the police have a fairly accurate time for the crime. They can trace everyones phone and find who was within a couple of meters of the proposed location. This straight away provides one of the 3 proofs a court needs to send you to jail.
FartingGnome
Well-known member
"The Warner brothers are both extremely intelligent. They run a data science company and both have PhD's. One in quantum physics, the other in quantum computing and he also has a degree in physics."
Oh, that's just fine then. Nothing could possibly go awry. Hold me back.
Oh, that's just fine then. Nothing could possibly go awry. Hold me back.
Stocko
Well-known member
“A crime is committed, and the police have a fairly accurate time for the crime. They can trace everyones phone and find who was within a couple of meters of the proposed location. This straight away provides one of the 3 proofs a court needs to send you to jail.”
So this app is not for criminals then?
So this app is not for criminals then?
C
Cooper671
Guest
Along with all the other phones aswell. Do they only come after people wearing tin foil hats who’s phone was in the area at the time?
You’d think people would want to stop the spread of the virus. The government that they sit around blaming everyday asks you to play your part but the conspiracy theorists are straight out.
By all means don’t play your part but you’ll be complicit in allowing the virus to spread and the deaths of people you are so keen to blame on the government
You’d think people would want to stop the spread of the virus. The government that they sit around blaming everyday asks you to play your part but the conspiracy theorists are straight out.
By all means don’t play your part but you’ll be complicit in allowing the virus to spread and the deaths of people you are so keen to blame on the government
dooderooni
Well-known member
As someone who has been on record for highlighting privacy concerns on here and the other board I'd like to chime in.
From what I've read, the contact data is stored locally and is only uploaded at your direction. At that point the algorithms take over to weed out those contacts not deemed sufficient to allow transmission or those adjacent and blocked by walls etc and it is only then that the alert is sent out and arrangements made for testing appointments for those possibly infected.
I think once you've reported symptoms then you have to hand off some privacy just as you would if you went to the doctor. We have a national health service so I think it goes without saying that having a national coordination of testing goes with it too.
As long as this app can meet the data protection requirements of those already widely in use in the NHS system then I'd say that the benefits in coping with the disease are worth using it.
We are still a democracy after all is said and done and I'll guarantee that various privacy and human rights groups will be focussing on this app as we speak and that it will be given scrutiny. Once we get some comment from them and not conjecture then we can make a more informed decision about its use.
From what I've read, the contact data is stored locally and is only uploaded at your direction. At that point the algorithms take over to weed out those contacts not deemed sufficient to allow transmission or those adjacent and blocked by walls etc and it is only then that the alert is sent out and arrangements made for testing appointments for those possibly infected.
I think once you've reported symptoms then you have to hand off some privacy just as you would if you went to the doctor. We have a national health service so I think it goes without saying that having a national coordination of testing goes with it too.
As long as this app can meet the data protection requirements of those already widely in use in the NHS system then I'd say that the benefits in coping with the disease are worth using it.
We are still a democracy after all is said and done and I'll guarantee that various privacy and human rights groups will be focussing on this app as we speak and that it will be given scrutiny. Once we get some comment from them and not conjecture then we can make a more informed decision about its use.
FartingGnome
Well-known member
Two things - give independent oversight and regulation as to what is going to happen to the data, and get rid of Cummings and his cronies. Then you'd have my undivided attention.
Randy
Well-known member
As if by clockwork here you come to make it political.
C
Cooper671
Guest
As if by clockwork here you are conveniently missing it’s been political since post 1.
As you were
As you were
kuepper
Well-known member
Laughing
Well-known member
Not sure what you mean Stocko - oh you mean you only need to worry if you are a criminal? That is such a load of nonsense and has been proven by our justice system time and time again, I won't even bother addressing it - go do your own research on wrongly convicted folks doing jail time.
Laughing
Well-known member
Exactly FG
BobUpnDown
Well-known member
large scale testing will give data to the scientists to see who has had the virus & possibly indicate level of possible immunity. Testing for the virus itself is probably best for those with symptoms - mass temp' checks may be a better use of resources & time esp at public places - shopping malls, sporting / social events ( running a temp, no entry )
I've no problem with an app in the short term & it is more than a little ironic we allow Facebook & other S.M. apps full access to our lives, habits & conversations (messages are processed & info sold) though a Gov's want to help protect us from a, fatal for some & debilitating for many, virus & its them that can't be trusted....
yes, use of data & level of access need to be specific though after that this has to be the way forward - no app = no social access....
I've no problem with an app in the short term & it is more than a little ironic we allow Facebook & other S.M. apps full access to our lives, habits & conversations (messages are processed & info sold) though a Gov's want to help protect us from a, fatal for some & debilitating for many, virus & its them that can't be trusted....
yes, use of data & level of access need to be specific though after that this has to be the way forward - no app = no social access....
Laughing
Well-known member
Bob, we have a choice about how our data is used in social media with privacy setting - i dont use facebook, so I don't really know how secure it's privacy settings are. The idea that no app no access to venues ignores the fact that lots of people don't have a smart phone. This will never be compulsory, unless the government starts a smart phone means tested handout of smart phones. Also what about children with no smart phone.
There has been some nonsense spoken in this thread.
No one has a problem, I don't think with an app that comes under independent scrutiny to make sure that our data is used within the confines of GDPR. We can then all make a choice about whether we want that data gathered by a government who are not entirely trusted.