The Madeleine McCann case: “major breakthrough”

[American_Mary]

11 million pounds have been spent on this case. I have no problem with that as long as every missing child case and murder case has had a similar amount of resources allocated. Given we've had a decade where resources have been dramatically cut I doubt that to be the case.

The average cost of a missing person investigation in the U.K. is around £2.5k, the investigation into the disappearance of Ben Needham in Kos cost around £700k, the McCann case has cost upwards of £11m and rising, the disparity doesn’t make a huge amount of sense, there are lots of things that don’t really add up in the case and like others I’m heavily conflicted by it. I can’t get why anyone would leave young children unattended in an apartment abroad in a complex with babysitting facilities and think that was ok, she could have woken and wandered off looking for her parents, Madeleine deserved better and whilst I can’t begin to imagine the torment that the McCann’s have been through I can’t help but feel angry at them for their actions which were irresponsible and ill judged.

 

[coluka]

Portuguese Police v White Middle Class couples

Only one winner there

Discredited Portuguese Police v holidaying couples stating timeline of events.

Corrected it for you there. I don’t see what their colour or alleged class status has to do with any of it. Just seems like more prodding and poking a couple in turmoil to me. There but for the grace of god and lady luck........

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. We all have the odd skeleton we hope is securely locked away in our cupboards after all. We all judge others at times, it’s human nature, but we should also remember that in doing so, we don’t define those we judge, we define ourselves. Those that are quick to judge others are always slow to point out their own faults.

 

[1finny]

Some would argue a discredited English couple.
And that, was kind of my point.

If you don’t see what alleged class status has to do with it fair enough.
Lots of us do.

As for your bit about getting their story straight. It just felt like twaddle.
See Gaz’s response

 

[coluka]

The average cost of a missing person investigation in the U.K. is around £2.5k, the investigation into the disappearance of Ben Needham in Kos cost around £700k, the McCann case has cost upwards of £11m and rising, the disparity doesn’t make a huge amount of sense, there are lots of things that don’t really add up in the case and like others I’m heavily conflicted by it. I can’t get why anyone would leave young children unattended in an apartment abroad in a complex with babysitting facilities and think that was ok, she could have woken and wandered off looking for her parents, Madeleine deserved better and whilst I can’t begin to imagine the torment that the McCann’s have been through I can’t help but feel angry at them for their actions which were irresponsible and ill judged.

Nobody, least of all the McCanns would disagree with you in saying their actions were irresponsible and ill judged. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The likelihood is that despite our own individual personal views of what is right and wrong in terms of childcare, I doubt there is a parent alive that hasn’t made a stupid error or errors. Most thank goodness are without consequence. This family have paid a huge price for theirs. Madeleine the highest price of all.
Their will be some families that still do such a thing unfortunately. I guess if there are no consequences then it becomes normalised behaviour

Personally speaking, If you are a family you stick together as a family. I would never act like the McCanns did. However, I would not trust strangers in a hotel complex who provided a baby sitting facility to look after my young kids. Was it a babysitting service where someone actually stayed with the children at all times, or was it more the usual I have come across, where someone pops in every so often and checks? If the latter, isn’t that what the group themselves were doing anyway? Did the service provide listening devices within rooms to staff providing the service? If so, how can people be sure they don’t get distracted by something else at times? I don’t think allowing a total stranger to babysit is acceptable personally, but that might be just me.

We all judge others too quickly and make excuses for our own flaws and slip ups. I think the McCanns are owning theirs tbf. The law of unintended and unexpected consequence applies unfortunately. As I said earlier, despite the McCanns Ill advised actions, the children should still all have expected to have remained safe in a locked bedroom. The fact they were not has more to do with the kidnapper rather than the McCanns, on balance, for me.

 

[Malaguena]

If I was with a group and such a tradgedy struck, I would want to ensure everyone was clear about the events leading up to it to make sure neither I nor anyone else missed any detail out

Well that's one "reason" why they would do that certainly - there are alternatives

 

[coluka]

Some would argue a discredited English couple.
And that, was kind of my point.

If you don’t see what alleged class status has to do with it fair enough.
Lots of us do.

As for your bit about getting their story straight. It just felt like twaddle.
See Gaz’s response

I read gaz’s response. Of course their heads were a mush. That wont stop others questioning each other thinking when and what happened, who went to check on who at what times. Nobody was suggesting they sat around over a glass of wine and some canapes calmly chatting about what has gone on so they can have the facts ready for the police ffs. They will have been questioning and going over with each other in panic most likely,

This class thing is a sad distraction for me. Surely you don’t think all middle class or working class people behave or think the same way or all receive the same privilages depending on what class you are perceived to be in? Do you think because they are doctors that they had better treatment than if they were say teachers or a bank employee.
Maybe their education, connections and common sense provided them with more life skills to cope, respond and progress than others may have had in similar circumstances, but why should that be a stick to beat them with, who would not use all their skills, resources and connections in such a situation, I would and suspect you would too, whatever skin colour or class I was.

 

[American_Mary]

Nobody, least of all the McCanns would disagree with you in saying their actions were irresponsible and ill judged. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The likelihood is that despite our own individual personal views of what is right and wrong in terms of childcare, I doubt there is a parent alive that hasn’t made a stupid error or errors. Most thank goodness are without consequence. This family have paid a huge price for theirs. Madeleine the highest price of all.
Their will be some families that still do such a thing unfortunately. I guess if there are no consequences then it becomes normalised behaviour

Personally speaking, If you are a family you stick together as a family. I would never act like the McCanns did. However, I would not trust strangers in a hotel complex who provided a baby sitting facility to look after my young kids. Was it a babysitting service where someone actually stayed with the children at all times, or was it more the usual I have come across, where someone pops in every so often and checks? If the latter, isn’t that what the group themselves were doing anyway? Did the service provide listening devices within rooms to staff providing the service? If so, how can people be sure they don’t get distracted by something else at times? I don’t think allowing a total stranger to babysit is acceptable personally, but that might be just me.

We all judge others too quickly and make excuses for our own flaws and slip ups. I think the McCanns are owning theirs tbf. The law of unintended and unexpected consequence applies unfortunately. As I said earlier, despite the McCanns Ill advised actions, the children should still all have expected to have remained safe in a locked bedroom. The fact they were not has more to do with the kidnapper rather than the McCanns, on balance, for me.

My understanding is that the babysitters were members of the Kid’s Club that was on the complex and that the children would be attended at all times, the apartment and the bedroom were unlocked and for me Madeleine waking up and wandering off is as likely as a kidnap, the fact that all this could easily have been averted by just common sense parenting.

Whilst I totally agree we have all made mistakes as parents I think leaving 3 small children unattended in a strange apartment with cursory checks whilst going out for dinner is outside the parameters of reasonable parenting and whilst I empathise with the pain and anguish they must be suffering I can’t help but feel that their daughter will have suffered more.

 

[coluka]

Well that's one "reason" why they would do that certainly - there are alternatives

Yet the police seem satisfied with all the facts and known evidence they have at their fingertips, whilst some on here, based on press and media reports, some factual, some conjecture have a better understanding of the truth. I believe Terry Pratchett once said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it’s not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. (for the avoidance of doubt, no offence intended btw)

 

[nowthen]

Are you on the Kate and Gerry PR team Coluka?
None of what you say washes with me and I’d dare say a fair few others.

 

[coluka]

My understanding is that the babysitters were members of the Kid’s Club that was on the complex and that the children would be attended at all times, the apartment and the bedroom were unlocked and for me Madeleine waking up and wandering off is as likely as a kidnap, the fact that all this could easily have been averted by just common sense parenting.

Whilst I totally agree we have all made mistakes as parents I think leaving 3 small children unattended in a strange apartment with cursory checks whilst going out for dinner is outside the parameters of reasonable parenting and whilst I empathise with the pain and anguish they must be suffering I can’t help but feel that their daughter will have felt more.

Are you saying the McCanns purposely left the bedroom unlocked themselves have they acknowledged this, or could the bedroom just have been found unlocked by the Kidnapper making his getaway?

Nobody, least of all me considers the McCanns actions anything other than poor parenting and ill advised, I just don’t think they deserve the hate that some seem to feel toward them. Most of us get lucky with our errors of judgement and don’t suffer the tragic consequences Maddie experienced and her parents have to suffer with their life sentence of torture pain and anguish. The fact that the McCanns have not faced charges of neglect indicates to me that we don’t have all the facts at our disposal. I know of a senior ranking police officer and wife in 2010 that to my astonishment left their 2 kids supposedly asleep in their hotel room on 2 occasions while he and his wife had their evening meal and watched a bit of the cabaret occasionally popping up to their room. I find people are sometimes too relaxed in their surroundings they forget the risks, I think people should be more aware than when at home tbh.

 

[coluka]

Are you on the Kate and Gerry PR team Coluka?
None of what you say washes with me and I’d dare say a fair few others.

No mate, but I am sure you know that. I just feel they have suffered enough and will live the rest of their lives in torment In any event. I just think the police know a lot more than those with less information and rely on conjecture and I trust their judgement more. As I said, I do find those quick to judge others are slow to be open about their own personal flaws though, with their own skeletons locked away (We all have em). Thankfully most of us don’t have our lives laid bare for the nation to ravage and thirst upon.

 

[Steer]

Even if they find this German guy is found guitly of kidnap, child abuse and murder, there will still be plenty of people who will blame the parents more than the perpatrator.

 

[American_Mary]

Are you saying the McCanns purposely left the bedroom unlocked themselves have they acknowledged this, or could the bedroom just have been found unlocked by the Kidnapper making his getaway?

Nobody, least of all me considers the McCanns actions anything other than poor parenting and ill advised, I just don’t think they deserve the hate that some seem to feel toward them. Most of us get lucky with our errors of judgement and don’t suffer the tragic consequences Maddie experienced and her parents have to suffer with their life sentence of torture pain and anguish. The fact that the McCanns have not faced charges of neglect indicates to me that we don’t have all the facts at our disposal. I know of a senior ranking police officer and wife in 2010 that to my astonishment left their 2 kids supposedly asleep in their hotel room on 2 occasions while he and his wife had their evening meal and watched a bit of the cabaret occasionally popping up to their room. I find people are sometimes too relaxed in their surroundings they forget the risks, I think people should be more aware than when at home tbh.

They purposely left the apartment unlocked so that anyone of their party could go in and check on the children, they also left the bedroom window open, it’s all pretty well documented, in fact it was only that the wind through the window caused the bedroom door to slam while Kate was there that made her go into the bedroom and it was then she noticed Madeleine had gone.

I don’t hate them and empathise with what they’re going through, I don’t think charges of neglect would have been right but they did unwittingly endanger their children by their actions and you’re a 100% right some people do become complacent with children on holiday whenever we have gone on away with friends or family we’ve always taken the kids with us or one couple has babysat whilst the others have gone out.

 

[Malaguena]

(for the avoidance of doubt, no offence intended btw)

None taken mate

 

[1finny]

I read gaz’s response. Of course their heads were a mush. That wont stop others questioning each other thinking when and what happened, who went to check on who at what times. Nobody was suggesting they sat around over a glass of wine and some canapes calmly chatting about what has gone on so they can have the facts ready for the police ffs. They will have been questioning and going over with each other in panic most likely,

This class thing is a sad distraction for me. Surely you don’t think all middle class or working class people behave or think the same way or all receive the same privilages depending on what class you are perceived to be in? Do you think because they are doctors that they had better treatment than if they were say teachers or a bank employee.
Maybe their education, connections and common sense provided them with more life skills to cope, respond and progress than others may have had in similar circumstances, but why should that be a stick to beat them with, who would not use all their skills, resources and connections in such a situation, I would and suspect you would too, whatever skin colour or class I was.

I believe they got different treatment because of who they were and the connections they had - yes.
I’m not beating them with a stick over it - all I commented on was the unfairness of that.
Others - particularly AM have articulated the inequality issue better than me.

 

[nowthen]

I’m still flummoxed why they were “surprised” Maddie would wake up during the night? Let alone why they repeatedly left three children alone so they could have a glass of wine.
All my sympathy lies with Maddie.

 

[Jonny Ingbar]

I do agree with Coluka, the McCann's I'm sure have painful regrets that must rest very heavily on their conscience, but they have suffered beyond what most if us can imagine, not only due the abduction of their daughter, but also years of false implication.

Its such a sad case and I find it hard to understand why there is some lack of empathy towards them.

 

[Malaguena]

I’m still flummoxed why they were “surprised” Maddie would wake up during the night?

I posted earlier that with both of them being doctors, they would have the skill and experience to sedate the kids (in tablet or injection form) so that they shouldn't wake up - hence the surprise.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not saying they did do this

 

[Foggysfplandiet3]

Reading this suspect’s past criminal history it appears that the German criminal legal system features a similar soft sentencing policy and bleeding heart defence lawyers to that which the British system features.

He was sentenced to just two years for s e x u a l a b u s e of a child in 1994 and only served part of the sentence. He was jailed for an identical offence in 2017 for just ONE year!

He is currently appealing his 7 year sentence for tying-up, gagging and raping a 72 year old widow, on a technicality over his arrest and reportedly could be released this Sunday.

It is obvious that this bloke was an extremely dangerous s e x u a l predator years ago and should have been detained at the Chancellor’s pleasure, or whatever their term is, then.

 

[Jonny Ingbar]

I posted earlier that with both of them being doctors, they would have the skill and experience to sedate the kids (in tablet or injection form) so that they shouldn't wake up - hence the surprise.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not saying they did do this

Then why suggest it?