Supreme Court ruling on Scot ref - Scottish govt does NOT have right to hold another referendum

Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
What do I expect them to do? It's a bit of an odd question. I expect them to honour the result of the referendum. Just as any democratic vote should be respected. If you don't do that then you don't live in a democracy. That goes for Nicola sturgeon as much as Donald trump.
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So using that logic, we previously voted to be a part of the EU so we should never have been allowed to vote to leave, right?
 
sherlock1969 said:
So using that logic, we previously voted to be a part of the EU so we should never have been allowed to vote to leave, right?
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I don't think there should have been a referendum no.
But that was a gap of fifty years. Had there been another vote after ten years I do think it would be anti democratic.

If there is a vote and it does not go your way, it is not acceptable to hold a vote again and again and again until you get the vote you want. It is undemocratic. It is unworkable, as presumably you will have to have a referendum again to vote on whether to return to the UK.
I don't think that is in any way controversial or unreasonable.

This is not a general election. This is breaking apart a country. This is irreversible. I mean we're only just keeping a lid on Ireland thanks to all that Brexit *****. Yeah what we need is more nationalism....
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
I don't think there should have been a referendum no.
But that was a gap of fifty years. Had there been another vote after ten years I do think it would be anti democratic.

If there is a vote and it does not go your way, it is not acceptable to hold a vote again and again and again until you get the vote you want. It is undemocratic. It is unworkable, as presumably you will have to have a referendum again to vote on whether to return to the UK.
I don't think that is in any way controversial or unreasonable.

This is not a general election. This is breaking apart a country. This is irreversible. I mean we're only just keeping a lid on Ireland thanks to all that Brexit *****. Yeah what we need is more nationalism....
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So 50 years is ok, 10 years not ok. What's the cut off point then?
 
Btw using your eu/brexit referendum analogy we never agreed to join the EU either as we only ever voted to join the then EC/EEC the Maastricht treaty in 92 completely changed the entire premise of the whole organisation from a purely economic based one to a more federal political body.
 
sherlock1969 said:
So 50 years is ok, 10 years not ok. What's the cut off point then?
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I've already answered this earlier. Of course the length of time matters. Do you think it would be ok holding another referendum a week after the previous one.

If Scotland did leave the UK do you think there should be another referendum 10 years later to placate the 50% who wanted to remain? And on and on and on.

Also do you think it is acceptable if you lose a vote to hold it again and again until you get the result you want?
It's like trying a man for murder and if you don't get the result you want trying him again and again until you get a compliant jury.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
I've already answered this earlier. Of course the length of time matters. Do you think it would be ok holding another referendum a week after the previous one.

If Scotland did leave the UK do you think there should be another referendum 10 years later to placate the 50% who wanted to remain? And on and on and on.

Also do you think it is acceptable if you lose a vote to hold it again and again until you get the result you want?
It's like trying a man for murder and if you don't get the result you want trying him again and again until you get a compliant jury.
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Well you actually raise a very good analogy, but not for the reasons you think.

There's a very good reason we did away with the double jeapardy rule. So we could try a man for murder again if new evidence came to light that may make the jury reconsider.

That new evidence here is Brexit.

Scotland voted on the union before Brexit. They have every right to have another say now that they were taken out of the EU against their will.
 
Jedi boro said:
They weren’t though as that is not how our democratic process works. As others have said what about London.

You can’t pick and choose results after the event.
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London isn't a devolved administration last time I looked. Scotland is it's own currency, it should have determination over it's future.
 
sherlock1969 said:
Well you actually raise a very good analogy, but not for the reasons you think.

There's a very good reason we did away with the double jeapardy rule. So we could try a man for murder again if new evidence came to light that may make the jury reconsider.

That new evidence here is Brexit.

Scotland voted on the union before Brexit. They have every right to have another say now that they were taken out of the EU against their will.
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Double jeapordy (yep I don't have a clue how to spell it either) is about evidence of the crime that was not available at the time. Brexit isn't evidence that wasn't available at the time. It's an event that happened after. In fact I think it would be pretty bizarre to cite the UK leaving one union as reason for leaving another. It certainly isn't an event that repudiates the earlier vote. The vote was to remain in the UK. Not to remain in the UK unless x y and z.

Do you think it is acceptable if you lose a vote to hold it again and again until you get the result you want?
do you think after the second referendum, there should then be a third referendum on rejoining the UK after 10 years. Then another one to leave ten years after that?
 
Jedi boro said:
Really

Btw she’s not asking for a vote she asking for independence. So if they have another vote and it once again goes against her will she accept that… of course not.
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Typo, auto correct. Scotland is it's own country.

A typo doesn't make the point less valid but I get that it's another target for Tory deflection. Well done.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Double jeapordy (yep I don't have a clue how to spell it either) is about evidence of the crime that was not available at the time. Brexit isn't evidence that wasn't available at the time. It's an event that happened after. In fact I think it would be pretty bizarre to cite the UK leaving one union as reason for leaving another. It certainly isn't an event that repudiates the earlier vote. The vote was to remain in the UK. Not to remain in the UK unless x y and z.

Do you think it is acceptable if you lose a vote to hold it again and again until you get the result you want?
do you think after the second referendum, there should then be a third referendum on rejoining the UK after 10 years. Then another one to leave ten years after that?
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No there shouldn't be vote after vote. But I am amazed you can't understand that Brexit has completely changed the way of life for people in a country that voted overwhelmingly to remain.

They should not be forced to put up with that forever because it hadn't happened at the point of the referendum.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Double jeapordy (yep I don't have a clue how to spell it either) is about evidence of the crime that was not available at the time. Brexit isn't evidence that wasn't available at the time. It's an event that happened after. In fact I think it would be pretty bizarre to cite the UK leaving one union as reason for leaving another. It certainly isn't an event that repudiates the earlier vote. The vote was to remain in the UK. Not to remain in the UK unless x y and z.

Do you think it is acceptable if you lose a vote to hold it again and again until you get the result you want?
do you think after the second referendum, there should then be a third referendum on rejoining the UK after 10 years. Then another one to leave ten years after that?
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Again her own words

Brexit is irrelevant to a referendum vote

Her own words

I want there to be another independence referendum at some stage. I want Scotland to be independent, but I wouldn't choose to have it happen because England votes to come out of the E.U.

Nicola Sturgeon
 
sherlock1969 said:
Typo, auto correct. Scotland is it's own country.

A typo doesn't make the point less valid but I get that it's another target for Tory deflection. Well done.
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Tory ???? Ha I don’t think so

I picked up on own currency as it’s east the Scot’s claim as well we will just keep using the pound???

So how does that work then
 
Jedi boro said:
Again her own words

Brexit is irrelevant to a referendum vote

Her own words

I want there to be another independence referendum at some stage. I want Scotland to be independent, but I wouldn't choose to have it happen because England votes to come out of the E.U.

Nicola Sturgeon
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Your words:

"Nichola sturgeon is not Scotland that is something she doesn’t seem to grasp"

So you must surely agree that what she thinks, and the reasons she thinks it, can't be held to be the point of view of the whole of the Scottish people? Right?
 
Jedi boro said:
Tory ???? Ha I don’t think so

I picked up on own currency as it’s east the Scot’s claim as well we will just keep using the pound???

So how does that work then
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Well that wasn't my point, and I have no real view on their currency, but out of interest why couldn't they keep using the Scottish pound?
 
sherlock1969 said:
No there shouldn't be vote after vote. But I am amazed you can't understand that Brexit has completely changed the way of life for people in a country that voted overwhelmingly to remain.

They should not be forced to put up with that forever because it hadn't happened at the point of the referendum.
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Why shouldn't there be vote after vote. I can't see anything other than partisanship here. There will be a vote until my side wins.

Brexit has not completely changed our way of life. It really hasn't. COVID is something that has completely changed our way of life. Brexit has not.
 
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