Supreme Court ruling on Scot ref - Scottish govt does NOT have right to hold another referendum

TeaCider

Well-known member
A key point in this whole situation is that the court ruling was an outcome that the SNP fully expected, they're just weaponising it to try and build support for independence, as you'd expect given their reason for existing.

The Scottish Parliament has never had the powers to legislate for a unilateral referendum, there's no denial of something that they're legally entitled to.

You can say that they should be allowed a referendum, and I think that's a fair viewpoint if the majority of voters want one, but the current situation is the absolute standard in most countries and not some unique boot on the neck of Scotland.

The noise coming through the media right now is that the SNP weren't expecting the court ruling to come so quickly, as they expected the court to say they wouldn't rule on a theoretical and defer the judgement, allowing them another 6 months of campaigning on "IndyRef2023" before trying to pass a bill in Holyrood for the 2nd referendum, with the expectation that the Supreme Court would then say it was unconstitutional and they'd try and ride a wave of anger going in to the 2024/25 General Election.

Instead, they've been given a flat no, followed by fairly low number pro-Independence marches, and have had to contend with mass teaching strikes in Scotland being the big news the day after.
 

Nano

Well-known member
Okay but the independence campaigns in places like Yorkshire and Cornwall are tiny. That's the difference. And it does make Scotland at least partly unqiue from the rest of the UK. Nowhere else in the UK is there an independence party getting the kinds of numbers Indeedido's quoting (even though he makes them sound small fry...)



Mebyon Kernow, the Cornish independence party, stood 1 candidate in 2019. They got 1,660 votes. 3% of the vote in their constituency.
Voting for SNP doesn't mean you want independence. If I had the option of voting for a party that wasn't Tory and specifically prioritised the region I live in then I would. Labour might be better than the Tories but for Scottish people Labour still won't prioritise them like the SNP do. If they dropped the N and were just called the Scottish Party then I'd wager they'd still be doing just as well. Scotland are a huge voice in Westminster now and they make sure Scottish issues are always highlighted. They are way more effective than the Welsh and Northern Irish equivalents. Many people will vote SNP despite wanting to be part of the UK and there will be many Scottish Tory voters that would like Independence.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
If I had the option of voting for a party that wasn't Tory and specifically prioritised the region I live in then I would. Labour might be better than the Tories but for Scottish people Labour still won't prioritise them like the SNP do. If they dropped the N and were just called the Scottish Party then I'd wager they'd still be doing just as well.

Again though, why don't we see the same elsewhere if that's all it is? The Yorkshire Party averaged about 2% of votes in the seats they stood in, in 2019. They're a non tory party, prioritising a region, and without an independence policy.

Like it or not, the independence situation in Scotland is unique for the UK.
 

Jedi boro

Well-known member
Again though, why don't we see the same elsewhere if that's all it is? The Yorkshire Party averaged about 2% of votes in the seats they stood in, in 2019. They're a non tory party, prioritising a region, and without an independence policy.

Like it or not, the independence situation in Scotland is unique for the UK.
No it’s not

Look at Plaid Cymru
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
No it’s not

Look at Plaid Cymru

What about them? They won 4 seats out of 30 odd they contested in 2019. They've got 12 out of 60 seats in the Senedd. They're nowhere near the dominance SNP have had in Scotland since 2015.

Plaid are much more focused on things like Welsh language preservation than independence as well. I don't think it's correct to say they're actively pursuing an independence policy yet.
 
Last edited:

SuperStu

Well-known member
Since 2015 is the key but before then they were on the same level.

Only difference is plaid don’t have a Hollywood film full of lies to back them up.

Do you think it's possibly a bit insulting and patronising to boil down what ~45% of people in Scotland have been voting for, for the past 10 years or so, as all just being an overreaction to a film?

As I said yesterday, lots of countries have decided they want independence from British rule over the last few centuries. It's not so unusual is it? Whys it so hard to believe they'd genuinely just prefer to be an independent nation? What film are you saying sparked the Easter rising in Ireland?
 
Last edited:

Jedi boro

Well-known member
Do you think it's possibly a bit insulting and patronising to boil down what ~45% of people in Scotland have been voting for, for the past 10 years or so, as all just being an overreaction to a film?
Not when there is academic evidence to show that brave heart did have a huge boost to snp support.

 

SuperStu

Well-known member
1992 - SNP get 629k votes.
1995 - Braveheart film comes out.
1997 - SNP get 621k votes.
2001 - SNP get 464k votes.

:unsure: doesn't quite fit the theory does it? The big jump comes in 2015. That the DVD release or something?
 

Priv

Well-known member
Many of their voters aren’t voting for them for independence they won a hell of a lot of their votes by lying to the electorate uo their with false promises of freebies and the majority they haven’t delivered.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
You can’t dismiss how the myth that the film created ie its all the English fault fuelled the independence movement.


I am dismissing that. It's an interview with the guy that wrote the screenplay, and all it says is a pollster has referred to under 30s as "the braveheart generation". Sorry Jedi, "academic evidence" it ain't.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
Many of their voters aren’t voting for them for independence they won a hell of a lot of their votes by lying to the electorate uo their with false promises of freebies and the majority they haven’t delivered.

I think this is grasping at straws. They got 45% in the actual 2014 referendum, the SNP seem to get ~45% in many elections since, I think it's fair to say their voters are broadly supportive of independence.
 

Jedi boro

Well-known member
Brave heart had a huge impact on Scottish independence you can deny it all you want it doesn’t stop it being true.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
Brave heart had a huge impact on Scottish independence you can deny it all you want it doesn’t stop it being true.

So how come it didn't increase SNP voting figures for 20 years after?

This isn't even a causation v correlation thing. There's no pattern to point to that supports it.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
Whilst I don't want to see the breakup of the union I can't really see a reason for not granting the scottish people the right to determine their own future.

On the subject of the movie Braveheart... Really Jedi? I guess you could make the argument that it helped to drive devolution, but a movie that took 20 years to have any effect on the scottish electorate. It's pure fantasy.
 
Top