Supreme Court ruling on Scot ref - Scottish govt does NOT have right to hold another referendum

Nano

Well-known member
Good on the Scots - I'd be voting for independence. Anything to get away from the Tories.
That wouldn't get them away from Tories. Maybe the current Conservative party but post independence the SNP's raison d'etre will have gone and they just become a traditional party. They'll be competing for votes against Scottish Labour and Scottish Tories. The left side will be split, and the Tories will dominate just as they do in England. The SNP will probably be the biggest party on the left but the Tories (or similar with a different name) will be the major party on the right.

Again though, why don't we see the same elsewhere if that's all it is? The Yorkshire Party averaged about 2% of votes in the seats they stood in, in 2019. They're a non tory party, prioritising a region, and without an independence policy.

Like it or not, the independence situation in Scotland is unique for the UK.
There are many reasons people don't vote for the party they really want. The FPTP system means most constituencies are a 2 party choice. Every other party is a protest or tactical. I know many people would prefer to vote Green for example but vote Labour because otherwise the Tories win. A general election is not a very good place to draw conclusions for a referendum style question. The SNP had 6 seats in Westminster the GE before the independence referendum so it wasn't like there was a clamour for it being reflected there even know the underlying demand for it was 40%ish. An independence poll on several regions around the UK might be a lot closer to wanting independence than the GE results indicate.

Independence is obviously a bigger issue in Scotland than in other UK areas which the referendum showed but it is still not an overwhelming majority.
 

hewielewie

Well-known member
If they do get independence I will be fishing out my dad's birth certificate and applying for a Scottish passport.
 

indeedido

Well-known member
Whilst I don't want to see the breakup of the union I can't really see a reason for not granting the scottish people the right to determine their own future.
It is surely all about reasonable intervals between such determinations?
It is accurate to say that the SNP have NEVER polled a majority of the vote in a Scottish Parliament or Westminster election.
Opinion polls as we know can be strange, but there has been no poll I've seen that indicates clear majority support for independence.
What appears to be happening is a concentration of views. Around 45% of voters vote for the SNP. Their support is strong, they are ridiculously over-represented in parliaments, yet still can not make further progress. All that is happening is that their support hardens, it does not grow.
With every year of SNP rule they expose themselves to criticism on their policy and its consequences.
Of course there are Labour, Lib and Conservative supporters of independence, but a minority.

I am all for self determination but I really do see a united Ireland happening before an independent Scotland - that I just can't see them voting for.

A Labour recovery and Government would I think further dampen an Independence fire that is simply not spreading.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
It is surely all about reasonable intervals between such determinations?
It is accurate to say that the SNP have NEVER polled a majority of the vote in a Scottish Parliament or Westminster election.
Opinion polls as we know can be strange, but there has been no poll I've seen that indicates clear majority support for independence.
What appears to be happening is a concentration of views. Around 45% of voters vote for the SNP. Their support is strong, they are ridiculously over-represented in parliaments, yet still can not make further progress. All that is happening is that their support hardens, it does not grow.
With every year of SNP rule they expose themselves to criticism on their policy and its consequences.
Of course there are Labour, Lib and Conservative supporters of independence, but a minority.

I am all for self determination but I really do see a united Ireland happening before an independent Scotland - that I just can't see them voting for.

A Labour recovery and Government would I think further dampen an Independence fire that is simply not spreading.
I disagree with the reasonable timescale comment. They should be able to determine their own future, today, tomorrow and any day.

I suspect a referendum would result in them remaining within the uk but they should be able to decide that for themselves.

If the majority don't want it then the snp will stop pushing for it or lose seats. That's exactly how democracy is supposed to work. A court refusing the right of self determination will only strengthen the snp.
 

Nano

Well-known member
I disagree with the reasonable timescale comment. They should be able to determine their own future, today, tomorrow and any day.

I suspect a referendum would result in them remaining within the uk but they should be able to decide that for themselves.

If the majority don't want it then the snp will stop pushing for it or lose seats. That's exactly how democracy is supposed to work. A court refusing the right of self determination will only strengthen the snp.
But that is mental. Once they are out they are out and there will be no way of getting back in. It's a one-time decision. Like I said previously, if they had asked the question every single day for the last 10 years then there will have been some days that leave will have won but remain would have won on 99% of them. If you give them the option every day and the referendum is asked on the 1% of occasions they'd win then it would be an irreversible decision that they don't really want.

Basically, it is such a big decision that the question should only be asked when the answer is already known and not just the SNP getting to keep asking and hoping to get lucky at some point.

The SNP will not lose seats because of independence because they are still the only party in Westminster that puts Scotland first. There will be plenty of SNP voters that don't want independence. They are no longer a single issue party.
 

indeedido

Well-known member
I disagree with the reasonable timescale comment. They should be able to determine their own future, today, tomorrow and any day.

I suspect a referendum would result in them remaining within the uk but they should be able to decide that for themselves.

If the majority don't want it then the snp will stop pushing for it or lose seats. That's exactly how democracy is supposed to work. A court refusing the right of self determination will only strengthen the snp.
Democracy shouldn't be about 45% of the vote getting 83% of the seats either.

A vote by them to leave doesn't just impact on them, but on the country they are a long standing part of. There is huge disruption and uncertainty created which is unhelpful to all.
There has been no expression of majority support for independence, let alone justification for a never ending death of a thousand cuts approach to referendum.
I am all for self determination, but when there is clear rationale/support for it.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
But that is mental. Once they are out they are out and there will be no way of getting back in. It's a one-time decision. Like I said previously, if they had asked the question every single day for the last 10 years then there will have been some days that leave will have won but remain would have won on 99% of them. If you give them the option every day and the referendum is asked on the 1% of occasions they'd win then it would be an irreversible decision that they don't really want.

Basically, it is such a big decision that the question should only be asked when the answer is already known and not just the SNP getting to keep asking and hoping to get lucky at some point.

The SNP will not lose seats because of independence because they are still the only party in Westminster that puts Scotland first. There will be plenty of SNP voters that don't want independence. They are no longer a single issue party.
That it's not a very sensible interpretation of what I said. You couldn't hold a referendum every day nor weekly or monthly. Let's keep this sensible. My point is it shouldn't be a courts decision on whether the Scottish people can hold a referendum but should be the people's choice.

There really isn't an argument against it. How would the electorate feel if government decided every 5 years is too soon for an election. Let's make them generational.

Democracy recognises that we are not good decision makers so get to change our minds every 5 years, if we wish.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
Democracy shouldn't be about 45% of the vote getting 83% of the seats either.

A vote by them to leave doesn't just impact on them, but on the country they are a long standing part of. There is huge disruption and uncertainty created which is unhelpful to all.
There has been no expression of majority support for independence, let alone justification for a never ending death of a thousand cuts approach to referendum.
I am all for self determination, but when there is clear rationale/support for it.
And what rationale for support did the courts consider? What rationale are you considering. I don't see a rationale for it! I suspect the Scottish people don't really care what you think, nor should they.

Everything else you said doesn't address my thoughts at all.
 

Nano

Well-known member
That it's not a very sensible interpretation of what I said. You couldn't hold a referendum every day nor weekly or monthly. Let's keep this sensible. My point is it shouldn't be a courts decision on whether the Scottish people can hold a referendum but should be the people's choice.

There really isn't an argument against it. How would the electorate feel if government decided every 5 years is too soon for an election. Let's make them generational.

Democracy recognises that we are not good decision makers so get to change our minds every 5 years, if we wish.
The SNP aren't the Scottish people. If it was up to them they would hold a referendum every week. Scotland is part of the UK and if the Scottish people could show, via polls, that they do want independence (regularly and clearly winning polls) then the UK government should grant them a referendum. Letting the SNP decide just gives them free reign to do it whenever they want. Imagine if pre-referendum we let Farage decide when we should hold a referendum and also if remain had won how long it would be before he wanted another one.

There is a good reason we have a proper process and we don't just allow the vocal minority to call the shots. Another huge reason is respecting the result of the previous referendum. The Scottish people have already decided they don't want independence.
 

indeedido

Well-known member
And what rationale for support did the courts consider? What rationale are you considering. I don't see a rationale for it! I suspect the Scottish people don't really care what you think, nor should they.

Everything else you said doesn't address my thoughts at all.
So you are disputing the rule of law and a verdict unanimously reached by 5 hugely respected legal professionals? Even SNP supporters can grasp the decision being right, let alone have rationale.
I suspect that a lot of Scots actually agree with the points I - and others - have made.
If there had been a sweeping majority of the popular vote in any election for the SNP; or repeated opinion polls over a period of time showing a significant majority support for independence; or if there had been repeated massive demonstrations on the streets, then there would be a case to consider whether the disruption to our country as a whole is worth another divisive referendum.
I stress again that I am not against self determination at all, but suspect you've made your mind up anyway.
 

Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret

Well-known member
Nobodys memory is perfectly fine. That's not how memory works. Everything you remember is filtered through your interpretations and biases. Everything I remember is filtered through my interpretations and biases.

I'm not saying I doubt what you're saying because of something to do with you personally being a liar. I'm saying any workplace its unlikely you'd go around and get every member of staffs opinion on a politician. That would be really weird. And even more unlikely they'd all have the exact same opinion. That's even more weird. Unless there's some important detail you're not telling us :ROFLMAO: do you work for the Conservative party's Scotland office or something?
Mate I haven't asked everyone's opinion on the Tories at work but I know that most people think they are *****.

And it isn't independence = Tories remain = labour. That's just you trying to put people in neat little boxes to allow you to disparage them.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
The SNP aren't the Scottish people. If it was up to them they would hold a referendum every week. Scotland is part of the UK and if the Scottish people could show, via polls, that they do want independence (regularly and clearly winning polls) then the UK government should grant them a referendum. Letting the SNP decide just gives them free reign to do it whenever they want. Imagine if pre-referendum we let Farage decide when we should hold a referendum and also if remain had won how long it would be before he wanted another one.

There is a good reason we have a proper process and we don't just allow the vocal minority to call the shots. Another huge reason is respecting the result of the previous referendum. The Scottish people have already decided they don't want independence.
The SNP represent the scottish folks in their parliament the same as the tories do here. I didn't say the snp should be able to declare independence, I said the scottish people should be given the right to self determination. If that is via a referendum then the courts shouldn't be intervening.

Look this isnt rocket science. Hollyrood is the scottish government, they couldn't call a referendum without the scottish parliament voting for it. That's democracy at work right there. That you don't like it nor agree with it doesn't lessen it. I can see they would be a bit miffed at what the tories are doing to the UK. Trying to find a way to release themselves from westminster seems fairly sensible to me. That the courts say they cannot will be seen by many as a limitation they don't necessarily agree with. A referendum has probative value and would be the voice of the scottish people.
 

indeedido

Well-known member
Hollyrood is the scottish government
They are the Scottish Government with control over specific matters, which have been agreed.
That Parliament can't just award itself control over everything unilaterally.
I understand the SNP frustration given their passion, but that does not mean they can just over-ride the Parliament or laws of their country. This is what they tried and failed to do.
 

Sexpom

Well-known member
I feel I need to clarify a few things no one is saying brave heart led to the snp votes per se as that was clearly the Thatcherite poll tax experiment that forever tainted Scotland’s view of Westminster, that was the catalyst but what I am saying is that it fuelled and continues to fuel this idea that England forced Scotland into a union against their will which just isn’t the case.

What it did do was give them a narrative that they have always been under English oppression ( despite James the first being a Scottish monarch) it feeds into the flower of Scotland style rhetoric and it cleared was a boon to Scottish nationalism.
Jedi, Braveheart had nothing to do whatsoever with influencing people on Scottish politics.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
So you are disputing the rule of law and a verdict unanimously reached by 5 hugely respected legal professionals? Even SNP supporters can grasp the decision being right, let alone have rationale.
I suspect that a lot of Scots actually agree with the points I - and others - have made.
If there had been a sweeping majority of the popular vote in any election for the SNP; or repeated opinion polls over a period of time showing a significant majority support for independence; or if there had been repeated massive demonstrations on the streets, then there would be a case to consider whether the disruption to our country as a whole is worth another divisive referendum.
I stress again that I am not against self determination at all, but suspect you've made your mind up anyway.
Did you even read my response? I mentioned rationale, because you did. It was aimed specifically, by you, I assume, at saying there wasn't a rationale for an independence referendum. What even does that mean? You choose not to answer that question. The courts decision was a legal one and nothing to do with the rationale behind a referendum. Those were my points. And they are correct! Trying to belittle that point with something I didn't even say tells me that either you don't have much attention to detail, or you just choose to ignore my point. It doesn't matter one jot what the legal position is when discussing a rationale for something.

To be clear you said there is no rationale for an independence referendum. If we replace rationale with its meaning - There is no logical basis or set of reasons for an independence referendum. You really believe that? Ty this for a rationale. The SNP hold a, slim, majority in Hollyrood. They are the defacto Scottish government and they want a referendum. They gained a majority on the back of independence. The house should be allowed to vote on a referendum and let the electorate decide in that referendum.

Now to the court result. The justices were quite right, the scottish parliament has no power to pass legislation that effects constitutional law in the UK. That is why they were denied. There is no legal route by which Scotland can leave the union, it wasn't considered at the time of the union. So whilst their ruling is entirely correct, the rationale is "When the union was formed no one thought of this, or indeed cared enough". It has absoloutely nothing to do with the last time a referendum was called.

Jeez I am confused why people wouldn't just agree that the scottish people should have the right to self determination through their parliament, the same as we do every 5 years! It's too short, it's too soon! According to whom? You, Jedi?
 

Laughing

Well-known member
They are the Scottish Government with control over specific matters, which have been agreed.
That Parliament can't just award itself control over everything unilaterally.
I understand the SNP frustration given their passion, but that does not mean they can just over-ride the Parliament or laws of their country. This is what they tried and failed to do.
See my reply above Indeedio
 

Laughing

Well-known member
interestingly enough, I think that if the SNP go ahead with their pre-election promise of making the next westminster election a de-facto independence referendum. And by that I mean, it is the only issue they campaign on and make it clear that if you want independence from the UK put a tick in the SNP box. But, if you don't, vote for someone else. This may make a strong political case for a referendum. I think it may well wipe them out though.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
The SNP knew what the Supreme Court ruling would be.
So they got exactly what they wanted.
They knew what the ruling would be, of course, but probably thought they had to try. The fact that the referendum would not be binding was what they hung their hats on. They knew, absolutely there is no legal mechanism for leaving the UK. They are trying to create a political route.
 
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