Sunak's 5 pledges

The small boat things is maddening isn't it! In all my years on this planet I've yet to meet anyone who gives a f**k about it.

It's bizarre in that the proportion of the electorate he's appealing to with that "pledge" are unlikely to vote Conservative going forward anyway. They'll either move to a party further right (can see a Farage come back on the cards) or potentially not vote at all in the misguided beliefs that any policies don't go far enough (forced repatriation anyone?)

I really struggle to believe the party strategists see this policy as a clear route to victory.
 
kuepper said:
You can be sure that whatever criteria they come up with to prove he met these pledges will be fiddled just as they fiddled the criteria to 'prove' they'd met the testing targets for covid - by saying each test was actually 2 tests and then adding kits in the post count as tests etc
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That’s just it normally I’d agree with you most of those things esp the nhs is largely anecdotal as we all know someone who has gone through it.

So it’s a hard one to pull off.
 
Colin Warnek said:
People aren't convinced Starmer is the answer to these problems, Labour is only the least worst step not a positive one.
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He's not the answer. He might halt the slide but he's not going to make things better. His headline today is "Labour won't spend its way out of Tory 'mess'" so if he isn't going to increase spending then how is anything going to improve? Everything is still going to get worse just at the current rate instead of accelerating further downwards. Increasing spending is exactly what needs to be done and it needs to be done in the right areas. The answer isn't to stop spending, it is to increase income and you do that by taxing the people that are hording all the wealth.
 
Nano said:
He's not the answer. He might halt the slide but he's not going to make things better. His headline today is "Labour won't spend its way out of Tory 'mess'" so if he isn't going to increase spending then how is anything going to improve? Everything is still going to get worse just at the current rate instead of accelerating further downwards. Increasing spending is exactly what needs to be done and it needs to be done in the right areas. The answer isn't to stop spending, it is to increase income and you do that by taxing the people that are hording all the wealth.
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I agree there's definitely scope for a wiser spending strategy. Some of the Tory waste has been horrific but being reliant on simply taxing the rich is flawed. People are much more globally mobile these days. Especially the rich. If the tax burden exceeds peoples tolerance levels they will get up and go.
 
Nano said:
He's not the answer. He might halt the slide but he's not going to make things better. His headline today is "Labour won't spend its way out of Tory 'mess'" so if he isn't going to increase spending then how is anything going to improve? Everything is still going to get worse just at the current rate instead of accelerating further downwards. Increasing spending is exactly what needs to be done and it needs to be done in the right areas. The answer isn't to stop spending, it is to increase income and you do that by taxing the people that are hording all the wealth.
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Maybe half of the solution is competency. The Tories have shown themselves to be incompetent for the last 12 years - I would hope Labour would be competent. At least Starmer has held jobs with high levels of professionalism and competency, totally unlike Cameron, Johnson & Sunak.
 
Jedi boro said:
And this is how the tories get in.

In order to get them out you need to vote someone in.
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Some democracy there you've envisioned Jedi.

"If you want rid of this party you can only vote for this one here".

If Nobby's views align with those of the green party and not the labour party then why would he vote for labour?
 
Randy said:
Some democracy there you've envisioned Jedi.

"If you want rid of this party you can only vote for this one here".

If Nobby's views align with those of the green party and not the labour party then why would he vote for labour?
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Because like it or not, in the current system it's a wasted vote. The absolute most important thing, bar none, is to get the Tories out.
 
It doesn’t matter…it’s going to be the same old shoite, just a different depth.
When we live in country that shares an electoral system that is used only by Belarus in the whole of Europe. With a built in bias that will continue to return Conservative governments the arguments just will continue to go round in circles.
For some reason it takes less individual votes to return a Tory than either Lab or Libs( lost the numbers,sorry)
It will be almost impossible to change FPTP…even if Labour wanted to.
 
Nano said:
He's not the answer. He might halt the slide but he's not going to make things better. His headline today is "Labour won't spend its way out of Tory 'mess'" so if he isn't going to increase spending then how is anything going to improve? Everything is still going to get worse just at the current rate instead of accelerating further downwards. Increasing spending is exactly what needs to be done and it needs to be done in the right areas. The answer isn't to stop spending, it is to increase income and you do that by taxing the people that are hording all the wealth.
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I do wish people would educate themselves a bit more on politics, instead of sweeping statements based on their preference. Starmer has to make the right fiscal noises.

Labour have, historically spent a much higher percentage of GDP on the healthcare system than tory governments. No surprise there you may think. However, under the last Labour government, they took NHS spend from the worst in europe to one of the best in europe, but it took time. Blair didn't just add 30% to the NHS budgets. It was brought in over time, as it will have to be under Starmer. This is a fact, not conjecture.

You have to have sensible fiscal policies that don't terrify international markets otherwise you go into or deepen recession. Yes you can borrow but, again, it has to be costed borrowing with a repayment plan in place. If Starmer went in to the next election with pledges that weren't seen as fiscally responsible, Labour fail at the election. It really is as simple as that.

This black and white view people have of fairly complex issues is so frustrating and I say this as someone who doesn't particularly like Starmer.
 
Laughing said:
I do wish people would educate themselves a bit more on politics, instead of sweeping statements based on their preference. Starmer has to make the right fiscal noises.

Labour have, historically spent a much higher percentage of GDP on the healthcare system than tory governments. No surprise there you may think. However, under the last Labour government, they took NHS spend from the worst in europe to one of the best in europe, but it took time. Blair didn't just add 30% to the NHS budgets. It was brought in over time, as it will have to be under Starmer. This is a fact, not conjecture.

You have to have sensible fiscal policies that don't terrify international markets otherwise you go into or deepen recession. Yes you can borrow but, again, it has to be costed borrowing with a repayment plan in place. If Starmer went in to the next election with pledges that weren't seen as fiscally responsible, Labour fail at the election. It really is as simple as that.

This black and white view people have of fairly complex issues is so frustrating and I say this as someone who doesn't particularly like Starmer.
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We are in a series of emergencies. The NHS is on the brink, the climate is on the brink etc. You can't slow down when you are rapidly approaching a cliff edge, you have to stop before you go over the edge. That is the priority, decelerating is not good enough. Just getting worse every year but not at the rate we were under the Tories is not good enough. You need to go big from the outset. Immediately he should be supporting the NHS strikes, he won't commit to inflation beating pay rises which will mean that NHS staff will never recover the years of below inflation pay cuts they have received. Trying to get the existing healthcare system to increase productivity enough that waiting lists start going down, A&E waits start going down etc needs immediate investment, not 10 years of gradual increases. Drip feeding increases while demanding more productivity is the Tory way of doing things.

I understand the need to not sound like you are just writing blank cheques but there are justifiable situations that require immediate attention. The message should be that we will turn things around immediately before it is too late otherwise you are going to still have strikes over pay, still have poor conditions for staff, not enough new staff being trained etc and it will just keep getting worse. You can't bleat on at the Tories for years for under-investing and then not immediately deliver that investment that you have said is so needed.
 
Nano said:
We are in a series of emergencies. The NHS is on the brink, the climate is on the brink etc. You can't slow down when you are rapidly approaching a cliff edge, you have to stop before you go over the edge. That is the priority, decelerating is not good enough. Just getting worse every year but not at the rate we were under the Tories is not good enough. You need to go big from the outset. Immediately he should be supporting the NHS strikes, he won't commit to inflation beating pay rises which will mean that NHS staff will never recover the years of below inflation pay cuts they have received. Trying to get the existing healthcare system to increase productivity enough that waiting lists start going down, A&E waits start going down etc needs immediate investment, not 10 years of gradual increases. Drip feeding increases while demanding more productivity is the Tory way of doing things.

I understand the need to not sound like you are just writing blank cheques but there are justifiable situations that require immediate attention. The message should be that we will turn things around immediately before it is too late otherwise you are going to still have strikes over pay, still have poor conditions for staff, not enough new staff being trained etc and it will just keep getting worse. You can't bleat on at the Tories for years for under-investing and then not immediately deliver that investment that you have said is so needed.
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But we won't turn it around immediately, we don't have the trained staff available. Any attempt to address that will take time.
 
Laughing said:
But we won't turn it around immediately, we don't have the trained staff available. Any attempt to address that will take time.
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We have a lot of trained staff that are working via agencies and locums because they pay better. They cost more so the NHS is inefficiently spending its money on staff that could be on a permanent contract. We have lots of capacity to increase social care which doesn't require such in-depth training which will reduce demand and free up beds which will ease things within hospitals. A small increase in salaries at those wages so it isn't competing with easier hospitality/retail work would see a huge increase in people opting to do that job. Increased salaries for existing NHS roles will reduce the number of people leaving to work abroad or retiring early etc. There are loads of things that can be done while we are waiting for new staff to be trained but it needs money to do it.
 
Nano said:
We have a lot of trained staff that are working via agencies and locums because they pay better. They cost more so the NHS is inefficiently spending its money on staff that could be on a permanent contract. We have lots of capacity to increase social care which doesn't require such in-depth training which will reduce demand and free up beds which will ease things within hospitals. A small increase in salaries at those wages so it isn't competing with easier hospitality/retail work would see a huge increase in people opting to do that job. Increased salaries for existing NHS roles will reduce the number of people leaving to work abroad or retiring early etc. There are loads of things that can be done while we are waiting for new staff to be trained but it needs money to do it.
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Oh dear. It doesn't matter how staff are contacted, privately or through the nhs. It's a finite number. It takes time to address that.

It's this kind of simplistic solution that many folks apply to problems in government. They don't work.

Staff need to be given a better deal. Training places need to be increased for doctors then wait for those to feed through the system. Better bursaries for urse training and again you have to wait for those staff to feed through.

Even if you pilfer staff from abroad, and let's ignore the dubious morality of that, it will still take time. If the tories gave the nhs 100 billion tomorrow the service wouldn't suddenly improve. It would take time.

That's not withstanding that a coherent plan and funding needs to be put in place. It takes time.
 
Laughing said:
Oh dear. It doesn't matter how staff are contacted, privately or through the nhs. It's a finite number. It takes time to address that.

It's this kind of simplistic solution that many folks apply to problems in government. They don't work.

Staff need to be given a better deal. Training places need to be increased for doctors then wait for those to feed through the system. Better bursaries for urse training and again you have to wait for those staff to feed through.

Even if you pilfer staff from abroad, and let's ignore the dubious morality of that, it will still take time. If the tories gave the nhs 100 billion tomorrow the service wouldn't suddenly improve. It would take time.

That's not withstanding that a coherent plan and funding needs to be put in place. It takes time.
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Oh dear, how patronising. It matters 100% how they are contracted because the more we spend on one thing the less we can spend on others. Having to cancel theatre lists because there are no agency staff available doesn't happen when staff are permanent because they are on a rota and the gaps wouldn't exist.

Instead of paying a premium for agency or locum we could spend the money on admin which frees up the clinical staff time so they can see patients instead of wasting it doing paperwork.

Increasing morale improves productivity and reduces sickness. Increased salaries and conditions can pay for itself via productivity improvements.

Permanent staff get involved in things like service improvement/development and can help to improve services. Temporary staff don't do that.

Retaining staff instead of losing them abroad or to early retirement means the numbers coming in via training or immigration is higher than the number leaving so vacancies stop increasing.

If we had more permanent staff, better productivity and reduced sickness then managers could actually manage instead of just fire fighting trying to fill shifts.

This isn't "simplistic solutions", this is reality. It is literally my job so don't pretend you are some expert on this.
 
Uwefuchs said:
I don't think anyone is seriously asking for an inflation beating payrise.
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Yowza, the tories have done a number on this country eh? Is the idea that people don't want to become poorer, year on year, for the rest of their lives really so far-fetched?
 
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