Project Reality

At the time Parliament were debating the decision to invade Iraq something like 2/3 of the population were in favour of it.

10 years later the decision was shown to be clearly a disaster and by then the number of people who admitted to having been in favour at the time - not whether they thought now about the decision - had dropped to about 35%.

Curious, human nature, isn’t it?

One difference of course is that in 2016 people actually had to vote, not just form an opinion, so denying that physical action ought to be harder than convincing oneself that your opinion now was not your opinion then.
 
I think the issue with Iraq is the death of UK serviceman and of course the innocent Iraqi civilians too. I think people shying away from saying they supported the decision given the loss of life is understandable (that they then chose to deny they supported it)
 
I think the issue with Iraq is the death of UK serviceman and of course the innocent Iraqi civilians too. I think people shying away from saying they supported the decision given the loss of life is understandable (that they then chose to deny they supported it)

There is a known phenomenon though about how people adjust their memories.
 
I think the issue with Iraq is the death of UK serviceman and of course the innocent Iraqi civilians too. I think people shying away from saying they supported the decision given the loss of life is understandable (that they then chose to deny they supported it)
Given a long enough time period the cost in human lives will almost certainly be greater, I mean this is gonna impact our access to life saving drugs, the wealth and health as a nation, mental health due to more people in poverty, cancer rises from food quality lowering, industrial accidents from lowering of health and safety. The list goes on of potential life costing impacts.
 
Remainers you all invest so much energy in leavers. Why ?

We now need to stand back with popcorn in hand and probably p45 in the other as we watch the biggest disaster of implemented ideology we’ll ever witness in our lifetimes made so much worse by the virus
We’ll get the country we deserve real soon
 
Not seen one person on here deny voting Brexit. People have admitted change their minds but no denying. Why would you struggle to find anyone in 10 years

There used to be loads of people on here/other board/ facebook/ down the pub etc defending and promoting brexit, evidently as there was 52% of the voters that voted for it. I remember seeing "we won, get over it" and "shut up snowflake" quite a lot.

There isn't the same support now, certainly not in the public domain, as it's indefensible.

Most of the brexit voters have crawled back under their rock as they can no longer point to any positives, as their lies and failings have been proven again and again.

The brexit vote won't have dropped much though, maybe 20% at the absolute most. That 20% will be bothered about the economy, workers rights, etc. The other 80% would still vote brexit no matter what happened, provided there was less immigration and less people from different races knocking about. We all knew this was what it was all about all along though.

You're not going to get many people willing to say this in public: "Fcuck the economy, fcuck workers rights, **** our NHS, fcuck foreign nurses. I'm not bothered about all that as long as there's less brown faces." But we all know there's tons of people that think like this, and this was way more than enough to swing the vote.
 
Remainers you all invest so much energy in leavers. Why ?

We now need to stand back with popcorn in hand and probably p45 in the other as we watch the biggest disaster of implemented ideology we’ll ever witness in our lifetimes made so much worse by the virus
We’ll get the country we deserve real soon

Can't share your attitude for 2 reasons.

Remainers, Brexiteers and Britain will all suffer under Brexit. It's not as if remainers will be exempt because we didn't vote for it. There is a plausible argument that those from the socio-economic groups who voted for it will suffer most, but that is no consolation for the rest of us.

Basically, I don't think most remainers are that malicious. I won't be getting a kick out of the suffering of others, even if it does afford me the opportunity to be righteous about it.
 
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Can't share your attitude for 2 reasons.

Remainers, Brexiteers and Britain will all suffer under Brexit. It's not as if remainers will be exempt because we didn't vote for it. There is a plausible argument that those from the socio-economic groups who voted for it will suffer most, but that is no consolation for the rest of us.

Basically, I don't think most remainers are that malicious. I won't be getting a kick out of the suffering of others, even if it does afford me the opportunity to be righteous about it.

I don't think there's much point in rerunning the arguments. The issue now is how do the Government minimise the damage.
 
I don't think there's much point in rerunning the arguments. The issue now is how do the Government minimise the damage.

By staying in the Single Market, which most people wanted/expected and no-one voted to leave.

But it won't happen because this Government is set on it's course and the public, first in 2016 and then in December, gave it carte blanche to do what it wants.
 
You can spout as much b***ks as you want about how stupid leave voters are but you are wrong. There is a clear, easily explained reason why Leave won that you are too stupid to admit. The Leave vote offered hope that things would get better for people that have nothing whereas Remain told them that "this is the best it will get". Despite Leave now being seen as a Tory thing it was Remain that acted like Tories. They campaigned and voted to keep things the way they are because we already have it good (some would call this conservatism). Surely you can recognise the situation as being one that infuriates you when you are on the other side at a General Election.

Remian's arguments were all about what will be lost but they were trying to appeal to people that already have nothing to lose. People talking about the economy as a whole being better with immigration when the people that it directly affects via competition for jobs and stagnating wages only see the negatives. Remain utterly failed to offer any sort of positive reasoning for voting to stay or even any acknowledgment that the current situation could be improved. They tried to sell being an EU member as a utopia that we have already reached which for many is a kick in the nuts when they can see for themselves that their current situation is terrible.

It is not the Leave voters fault that they voted for hope or that Remain were too incompetent to offer any. It is not the Leave voters fault that the people that are responsible for carrying out Brexit have done a bad job of it. The responsibility falls on Parliament, and that includes MPs that wanted to Remain. After the result there should have been no more discussion on whether or not it was the right thing to do, it was decided by the people and that decision should have been respected. When people say it is remainers fault they don't mean you, the remain voter. You are irrelevant, you have no say in any decision. They mean the people in Parliament. Simple maths shows that in Parliament there was a clear majority of remain MPs. It was impossible for Leave to have a majority in anything they did and so it was remainers to blame for getting us into a position where a hard no deal brexit is the only option for getting Brexit at all. The government and the rest of Parliament are solely to blame for a multitude of things. The whole thing was a mess of arrogance where they assumed they'd win and then tried to wash their hands of it when they didn't but left no process in place for Leave to happen.

It was incompetence from the outset from Parliament. They should never have voted to approve the referendum to happen in the first place without an actionable plan to carry out if Leave won. You can blame leavers all you want but parliament voted for the referendum to happen (all except the SNP at least). They should not have voted for the referendum in the first place if they were unwilling to carry out the result. The way they have acted means we will never know what we could have achieved with Brexit because only the worst case scenario (and the one that remainers wanted the least) has been allowed to happen. Co-operation and a united front would have seen negotiations be very different and we may have managed something that was beneficial for us and the EU, if not perfect, but limited any downside. The necessity to be "right" appears to trump what is best.

In addition, since the result I have heard nothing but vitriol from the remainers who have developed some sort of self-appointed superiority complex and decided themselves as the arbiter of who is right and wrong. Suddenly everyone that thinks differently to them has been duped, or they are stupid, racist, selfish or a combination of all of the above. When people say that remainers have caused division and views to be entrenched then this is what they mean. Pre-referendum was fairly civil. Discussions were open and reasoned and there were many people that were unsure right up to the vote but since they ticked that box either way they have dug in and now they can see no benefit from the other side of the fence and it is now purely a defensive or aggressive position in any discussion.
 
You can spout as much b***ks as you want about how stupid leave voters are but you are wrong. There is a clear, easily explained reason why Leave won that you are too stupid to admit. The Leave vote offered hope that things would get better for people that have nothing whereas Remain told them that "this is the best it will get". Despite Leave now being seen as a Tory thing it was Remain that acted like Tories. They campaigned and voted to keep things the way they are because we already have it good (some would call this conservatism). Surely you can recognise the situation as being one that infuriates you when you are on the other side at a General Election.

Remian's arguments were all about what will be lost but they were trying to appeal to people that already have nothing to lose. People talking about the economy as a whole being better with immigration when the people that it directly affects via competition for jobs and stagnating wages only see the negatives. Remain utterly failed to offer any sort of positive reasoning for voting to stay or even any acknowledgment that the current situation could be improved. They tried to sell being an EU member as a utopia that we have already reached which for many is a kick in the nuts when they can see for themselves that their current situation is terrible.

It is not the Leave voters fault that they voted for hope or that Remain were too incompetent to offer any. It is not the Leave voters fault that the people that are responsible for carrying out Brexit have done a bad job of it. The responsibility falls on Parliament, and that includes MPs that wanted to Remain. After the result there should have been no more discussion on whether or not it was the right thing to do, it was decided by the people and that decision should have been respected. When people say it is remainers fault they don't mean you, the remain voter. You are irrelevant, you have no say in any decision. They mean the people in Parliament. Simple maths shows that in Parliament there was a clear majority of remain MPs. It was impossible for Leave to have a majority in anything they did and so it was remainers to blame for getting us into a position where a hard no deal brexit is the only option for getting Brexit at all. The government and the rest of Parliament are solely to blame for a multitude of things. The whole thing was a mess of arrogance where they assumed they'd win and then tried to wash their hands of it when they didn't but left no process in place for Leave to happen.

It was incompetence from the outset from Parliament. They should never have voted to approve the referendum to happen in the first place without an actionable plan to carry out if Leave won. You can blame leavers all you want but parliament voted for the referendum to happen (all except the SNP at least). They should not have voted for the referendum in the first place if they were unwilling to carry out the result. The way they have acted means we will never know what we could have achieved with Brexit because only the worst case scenario (and the one that remainers wanted the least) has been allowed to happen. Co-operation and a united front would have seen negotiations be very different and we may have managed something that was beneficial for us and the EU, if not perfect, but limited any downside. The necessity to be "right" appears to trump what is best.

In addition, since the result I have heard nothing but vitriol from the remainers who have developed some sort of self-appointed superiority complex and decided themselves as the arbiter of who is right and wrong. Suddenly everyone that thinks differently to them has been duped, or they are stupid, racist, selfish or a combination of all of the above. When people say that remainers have caused division and views to be entrenched then this is what they mean. Pre-referendum was fairly civil. Discussions were open and reasoned and there were many people that were unsure right up to the vote but since they ticked that box either way they have dug in and now they can see no benefit from the other side of the fence and it is now purely a defensive or aggressive position in any discussion.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, Mike.
 
You can spout as much b***ks as you want about how stupid leave voters are but you are wrong. There is a clear, easily explained reason why Leave won that you are too stupid to admit. The Leave vote offered hope that things would get better for people that have nothing whereas Remain told them that "this is the best it will get". Despite Leave now being seen as a Tory thing it was Remain that acted like Tories. They campaigned and voted to keep things the way they are because we already have it good (some would call this conservatism). Surely you can recognise the situation as being one that infuriates you when you are on the other side at a General Election.

Remian's arguments were all about what will be lost but they were trying to appeal to people that already have nothing to lose. People talking about the economy as a whole being better with immigration when the people that it directly affects via competition for jobs and stagnating wages only see the negatives. Remain utterly failed to offer any sort of positive reasoning for voting to stay or even any acknowledgment that the current situation could be improved. They tried to sell being an EU member as a utopia that we have already reached which for many is a kick in the nuts when they can see for themselves that their current situation is terrible.

It is not the Leave voters fault that they voted for hope or that Remain were too incompetent to offer any. It is not the Leave voters fault that the people that are responsible for carrying out Brexit have done a bad job of it. The responsibility falls on Parliament, and that includes MPs that wanted to Remain. After the result there should have been no more discussion on whether or not it was the right thing to do, it was decided by the people and that decision should have been respected. When people say it is remainers fault they don't mean you, the remain voter. You are irrelevant, you have no say in any decision. They mean the people in Parliament. Simple maths shows that in Parliament there was a clear majority of remain MPs. It was impossible for Leave to have a majority in anything they did and so it was remainers to blame for getting us into a position where a hard no deal brexit is the only option for getting Brexit at all. The government and the rest of Parliament are solely to blame for a multitude of things. The whole thing was a mess of arrogance where they assumed they'd win and then tried to wash their hands of it when they didn't but left no process in place for Leave to happen.

It was incompetence from the outset from Parliament. They should never have voted to approve the referendum to happen in the first place without an actionable plan to carry out if Leave won. You can blame leavers all you want but parliament voted for the referendum to happen (all except the SNP at least). They should not have voted for the referendum in the first place if they were unwilling to carry out the result. The way they have acted means we will never know what we could have achieved with Brexit because only the worst case scenario (and the one that remainers wanted the least) has been allowed to happen. Co-operation and a united front would have seen negotiations be very different and we may have managed something that was beneficial for us and the EU, if not perfect, but limited any downside. The necessity to be "right" appears to trump what is best.

In addition, since the result I have heard nothing but vitriol from the remainers who have developed some sort of self-appointed superiority complex and decided themselves as the arbiter of who is right and wrong. Suddenly everyone that thinks differently to them has been duped, or they are stupid, racist, selfish or a combination of all of the above. When people say that remainers have caused division and views to be entrenched then this is what they mean. Pre-referendum was fairly civil. Discussions were open and reasoned and there were many people that were unsure right up to the vote but since they ticked that box either way they have dug in and now they can see no benefit from the other side of the fence and it is now purely a defensive or aggressive position in any discussion.

I think I feel sorry for your keyboard.

It would take a whole thread, perhaps more, to tackle all the errors, factual and logical, in this. I'm game, like.
 
There is a clear, easily explained reason why Leave won


Yes there is - lies and media. People believing fake news and spreading and sharing it, and Vote.Leave etc capitalising on that.

You only have to look at how often people like Mickgaz on the other board spread lies about Paul Williams despite me regularly providing transcripts, copies of his campaign material and a video of what he actually DID say during his campaign, yet every time a thread comes around you get him and a bunch of others going on about how they switched their opinion, lied to voters and paid the price etc - all because that is the narrative that is pushed.

People can debunk all the Turkey joining the EU, £350m for the NHS etc type lies all they like but people can and do swallow them up and spread them.
 
Don't bother Lefty. You fit into this bit:

I'm not afraid to put my thoughts, reasoning and argument up to scrutiny. I'm sure I'll bristle at being shown up to be wrong, which is entirely possible, but I'll have to get over that.

It's better to be corrected, than carry on in ignorance, don't you think?
 
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