Meanwhile, in Sweden...

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Nope I'm not going to stop posting just going to not add to lockdown / Rona threads see bears post he's already saying look the model had nothing to do with lockdown because the guardian said so that's my second point covered.

Oh but well done you're my first ignored poster 👍🏻
Nowt wrong with being ignored - I've been ignored most of my life and it hasn't done me any harm! (Wish I knew how to do emojis on here it's robbed me of all my power,a bit like Samson and his haircut ....and that's another thing.....)
Keep on posting Alvez!
 
Nowt wrong with being ignored - I've been ignored most of my life and it hasn't done me any harm! (Wish I knew how to do emojis on here it's robbed me of all my power,a bit like Samson and his haircut ....and that's another thing.....)
Keep on posting Alvez!
👍
 
Nowt wrong with being ignored - I've been ignored most of my life and it hasn't done me any harm! (Wish I knew how to do emojis on here it's robbed me of all my power,a bit like Samson and his haircut ....and that's another thing.....)
Keep on posting Alvez!

Just use you emojis on your phone 🌞
 
Interesting listen.

I found the following quote of his:
" We think that up to 25% of people in Stockholm have been exposed to coronavirus and are possibly immune. A recent survey from one of our hospitals in Stockholm found that 27% of staff there are immune. We think that most of those are immune from transmission in society, not the workplace. We could reach herd immunity in Stockholm within a matter of weeks."

He seems to be saying that lots of Stockholm residents have contacted each other so may be immune. That's a long stretch.

Also, one Stockholm hospital had 27% immunity but it's from society not work. Another long stretch. (It would be nice to know which serology he's using as the effectiveness of testing seems to be a problem worldwide.)

He's now saying the policy is not all his so responsibility sharing is beginning.

The policy was drawn up in January with various people from their public health authority ... including Johan Giesecke.
Re. serology, I think it's the University of Umea that has developed the antibody test. Large scale testing is underway with results to begin coming through in June, as I understand it. As with most of the tests it is fallible ... it is missing some positive cases because antibody levels are low. It gives false negatives but not false positives. They are proceeding I think on the basis that it's better to under-estimate the number of people who have had it already than over-estimate.

It's good to know that there are no cases of re-infection. Those that were reported in the Far East turned out to be false. Good news if it means that infection gives some immunity, if only temporary.
 
But the virus is here to stay ... eventually it will most likely spread through Denmark, Norway and Finland too. If that happens at the end of next winter, they may have their deaths then. In short, we won't know how good or bad the Swedish response has been until a year or so from now.

And the main reason there is discussion of Sweden is that they did something that looked very risky but they have suffered far less than Italy and Spain who had strict lockdowns for 6 and 8 weeks. The secondary effect of this pandemic is going to be the terrible poverty visited upon people who have lost their jobs.... see the USA. In this respect, Sweden may turn out not to suffer as badly (although they will be hit hard by an American recession). Congrats on your Swedish genes anyway. And I don't think any nation will be in a position to have their response "bigged up" a year from now.

Sorry, bit of a late reply to this, and sorry to dig it up....

The virus could be here to stay, it could be here forever without a cure or vaccine, but if you get it controlled at any one point, and have a sufficient testing regime set up, then it can be tested, tracked and traced into insignificance, like loads of tiny ripples in a pond, compared to a tsunami or big waves in the sea. Multiple mini breakouts of 10 deaths per week is going to be better than 100 deaths per day, forever. If a vaccine comes, great, if not, then lock down till it's controlled enough where testing, tracking and tracing can work (like they always do in Asia). If the virus "gets out" like we abandoned test, track and trace, then it's impossible to ever have enough testing, tracking and tracing to ever work, as there would be a million infected paths crossing each other.

You seem to forget that an Economy which has full testing, tracking and tracing in place, can pretty much operate at 90-100%. There's no way Sweden can operate at 90-100% at 100 deaths per day, they will be lucky to be at 50% and they're going to be stuck on that until there's a vaccine.

Lock down scenario: Two months at 25% then 10 months at 90% is going to average = about 80% over a year
Non "official" lock down scenario: 12 months at 50% is going to average out at 50% over a year

Sweden might have suffered less, for now, as their population is lesser and they had a lower initial infection, neither which they can be praised for. But they haven't done better than Italy or Spain, as each of those had far less notice and an obviously much larger initial infection that they knew little about. As soon as they did know about it they started a recovery lock-down plan, and Spain's recovery has been phenomenal considering the direction their curve was going (steeper than anywhere). If you compare the deaths per day graph, Sweden will cross the path of Spain in about 3-4 weeks time, by the looks of it, which is shocking for Sweden. Especially when Sweden had 2-3 weeks notice, a lesser initial infection and a population about 1/5th of Spain.

Saying Sweden is doing a good job is like us being in a situation where we peaked at 600 deaths per day, and are still on that peak, but with no sign of it reducing, it would be a disgrace (like how everyone's saying the USA is a disgrace). What we have done had a higher peak (which is 100% crap), but at least there's now sustained reduction and some sort of testing and tracing seems to be getting organised. We should have locked down earlier and had a lower peak and a quicker recovery.

Sweden's curve is similar to the USA, except not as advanced. They have both got to a peak which is ridiculous for the amount of population near an infection, neither show any sign of a good, quick recovery. If you're not recovering, and testing greatly, then you're at exceptional risk to another massive breakout.
 
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Like I said, give it a year. Maybe 2. Then we may be better placed to judge.
Andn yes, the virus is likely to be around a while but, likelihood is that our immune systems will be better placed to respond as time goes on. It may well be the countries that have so far successfully suppressed the virus that are most susceptible to future outbreaks. We don't know yet.

You have a funny way of interpreting data. Spain still, after weeks of lockdown, has 143 deaths per day. And they aren't yet, as far as I am aware, including care home and community deaths.
Sweden has only had 4 days with over 100 deaths and that was in early April. Daily deaths are now around/below 60 and falling steadily as are ICU admissions (they have fallen from 48 per day at the peak in early April to less than ten per day this week).

Still, crack on.
 
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You have a funny way of interpreting data. Spain still, after weeks of lockdown, has 143 deaths per day. And they aren't yet, as far as I am aware, including care home and community deaths.
Sweden has only had 4 days with over 100 deaths and that was in early April. Daily deaths are now around/below 60 and falling steadily as are ICU admissions.

Still, crack on.

Interpret? I would say by about day 75 they're going to cross, and Spain is 5 times bigger population by the way.
1589287333537.png

Then compare the curve of Denmark, which is the worst out of Norway, Denmark and Finland.
1589287274156.png

Yeah, I just looked at the graph quickly, the average is about 90 since April, so maybe not quite 100. Still the equivalent of about 550 deaths per day in the UK though, so no real difference and my point is still the same. They have about 12 days over 100, so treble your "four".
138 deaths on the 8th of May, which was the last day before the numbers go down for weekend/ bank holiday reporting, no doubt they will be back up in the 80-120 range this week again.

1589286980897.png
 
Interpret? I would say by about day 75 they're going to cross, and Spain is 5 times bigger population by the way.
View attachment 2766

Then compare the curve of Denmark, which is the worst out of Norway, Denmark and Finland.
View attachment 2765

Yeah, I just looked at the graph quickly, the average is about 90 since April, so maybe not quite 100. Still the equivalent of about 550 deaths per day in the UK though, so no real difference and my point is still the same. They have about 12 days over 100, so treble your "four".
138 deaths on the 8th of May, which was the last day before the numbers go down for weekend/ bank holiday reporting, no doubt they will be back up in the 80-120 range this week again.

View attachment 2764
If you are going to show a graph of the daily deaths in Sweden, at least post one that is correct. Or do your homework.
 
Isn't the point with Sweden that they will be in line with most countries at the "end" of the pandemic but haven't detrimentally impacted the life of the majority of citizens as much as other countries?

Economically they will probably be better off (relatively) but there's also a quality of life consideration (a currency the Scandinavian's value and protect well in my experience).
 
borolad259 do you know if there has been anything produced in Sweden like the recent information from the ONS on deaths by occupation?
 
Sweden are occupying the same area of the graph as nations with much higher populations and initial infections (Germany, Belgium, Turkey, Netherlands), and they're stagnating on that level, this is the big, big problem. They shouldn't have got to that level in the first place, and certainly shouldn't be staying there.

Anyway, I don't want to keep having a pop at Sweden, but you can't defend where they are on the "deaths per day" for the population size of the country, it's indefensible. The fact they're not recovering from this sustained peak/ level means their lock-down hasn't worked, if the intention was reducing the infections.

If their intention is to keep the economy ticking, then it's like us just carrying on as normal if we were on 550 deaths per day, it's just not responsible. They're obviously taking measures which are harming the economy, whether they're enforced or just "advised".

There's no point going for the "herd immunity" option either, unless you can take the massive initial hit of deaths, or you can treat everyone at the same time. Herd immunity over the course of two years, isn't herd immunity, it's just a bad job, if the alternative is a lot less deaths with test, track, trace, isolate whatever.
 
Sorry, bit of a late reply to this, and sorry to dig it up....

The virus could be here to stay, it could be here forever without a cure or vaccine, but if you get it controlled at any one point, and have a sufficient testing regime set up, then it can be tested, tracked and traced into insignificance, like loads of tiny ripples in a pond, compared to a tsunami or big waves in the sea. Multiple mini breakouts of 10 deaths per week is going to be better than 100 deaths per day, forever. If a vaccine comes, great, if not, then lock down till it's controlled enough where testing, tracking and tracing can work (like they always do in Asia). If the virus "gets out" like we abandoned test, track and trace, then it's impossible to ever have enough testing, tracking and tracing to ever work, as there would be a million infected paths crossing each other.

You seem to forget that an Economy which has full testing, tracking and tracing in place, can pretty much operate at 90-100%. There's no way Sweden can operate at 90-100% at 100 deaths per day, they will be lucky to be at 50% and they're going to be stuck on that until there's a vaccine.

Lock down scenario: Two months at 25% then 10 months at 90% is going to average = about 80% over a year
Non "official" lock down scenario: 12 months at 50% is going to average out at 50% over a year

Sweden might have suffered less, for now, as their population is lesser and they had a lower initial infection, neither which they can be praised for. But they haven't done better than Italy or Spain, as each of those had far less notice and an obviously much larger initial infection that they knew little about. As soon as they did know about it they started a recovery lock-down plan, and Spain's recovery has been phenomenal considering the direction their curve was going (steeper than anywhere). If you compare the deaths per day graph, Sweden will cross the path of Spain in about 3-4 weeks time, by the looks of it, which is shocking for Sweden. Especially when Sweden had 2-3 weeks notice, a lesser initial infection and a population about 1/5th of Spain.

Saying Sweden is doing a good job is like us being in a situation where we peaked at 600 deaths per day, and are still on that peak, but with no sign of it reducing, it would be a disgrace (like how everyone's saying the USA is a disgrace). What we have done had a higher peak (which is 100% crap), but at least there's now sustained reduction and some sort of testing and tracing seems to be getting organised. We should have locked down earlier and had a lower peak and a quicker recovery.

Sweden's curve is similar to the USA, except not as advanced. They have both got to a peak which is ridiculous for the amount of population near an infection, neither show any sign of a good, quick recovery. If you're not recovering, and testing greatly, then you're at exceptional risk to another massive breakout.

You’ve very eloquently put my thoughts into how I think you come out of. Track trace and isolate

South Korea a prime example of how to do this.

I noticed Sweden were behind the U.K. on this one


EFDE45DA-7FE8-4A15-895C-779468E78596.jpeg
 
Isn't the point with Sweden that they will be in line with most countries at the "end" of the pandemic but haven't detrimentally impacted the life of the majority of citizens as much as other countries?

Economically they will probably be better off (relatively) but there's also a quality of life consideration (a currency the Scandinavian's value and protect well in my experience).

It's part of it. It was designed by pretty much the most senior epidemiologist in Europe with the aim of being sustainable in the long run (becuase he knew it would be a long run). They wanted to impact education as little as possible and allow society to function as much as possible without overwhelming the health system. They screwed up in the old folks homjes though.
 
Sweden are occupying the same area of the graph as nations with much higher populations and initial infections (Germany, Belgium, Turkey, Netherlands), and they're stagnating on that level, this is the big, big problem. They shouldn't have got to that level in the first place, and certainly shouldn't be staying there.

Anyway, I don't want to keep having a pop at Sweden, but you can't defend where they are on the "deaths per day" for the population size of the country, it's indefensible. The fact they're not recovering from this sustained peak/ level means their lock-down hasn't worked, if the intention was reducing the infections.

If their intention is to keep the economy ticking, then it's like us just carrying on as normal if we were on 550 deaths per day, it's just not responsible. They're obviously taking measures which are harming the economy, whether they're enforced or just "advised".

There's no point going for the "herd immunity" option either, unless you can take the massive initial hit of deaths, or you can treat everyone at the same time. Herd immunity over the course of two years, isn't herd immunity, it's just a bad job, if the alternative is a lot less deaths with test, track and trace.

When you start looking at the correct data, then I can engage with your arguments. But you aren't.
 
But they have been impacted, they're losing a $hit load of people per day comparatively, more than 95% of other countries.

Just because your economy takes a beating from a forced lock-down, means exactly the same as an economy taking a beating from an advised lock down. The longer it drags on with an enforced or advised lock-down, the worse it is. If you've got a serious leg infection, you need to chop your leg off and just accept it, no point just trying to fight it half arsed for two years, you will die of sepsis before you get to that point.
 
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