Isn’t it fantastic to have the grown ups in charge again?!

Scrote said:
Isn't that just another example of culture wars nonsense, in and of itself?
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No, it’s an example of the way the Tory party have dragged the debates downwards. They have harmed the office of power with lies and corruption and deceit. The adults are people that are trying to do the job as intended for the people, rather than trying to push the boundary of acceptable behaviour in power. They just happen to be largely Tory that are not adulting but not all of them.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Not really and it’s a non political comment as well.
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How is it non-political to call one set of politicians "adults" and another "children"?

The "adults in the room" comment is usually directed at the left. Repurposing it for the right doesn't make it any less of a culture-war meme than the right calling the left "woke".

Andy_W said:
In hindsight, labour, lib dem, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the tory Remainers, and even the EU should have been saying. "ok, have the brexit referendum, but before that you need to outline what this post referendum brexit would look like, legitimately. i.e agree loose terms on an exit deal, then have a vote on that versus remaining in the EU". Nobody sane could have a problem with that, on either side.
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The referendum was advisory. The fact that A50 was invoked without any real discussion about what it might mean is something that should shame every politician involved, including Corbyn.
 
Personally took the adults comment to mean we now have some serious politicians in charge rather than a left right thing.

A good example of a child the other day was Farage shouting ‘boring’ at a heckler like a nine year old child, we need better than that from our politicians whatever party they represent.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Personally took the adults comment to mean we now have some serious politicians in charge rather than a left right thing.

A good example of a child the other day was Farage shouting ‘boring’ at a heckler like a nine year old child, we need better than that from our politicians whatever party they represent.
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exactly that Holgate, the performative nonsense from Truss, Suella, Gullis, fabricant etc is as tedious as it is harmful to democracy and our national psyche. You can't engage seriously in debate with the nonsense they spout.

Not all tories are performative nonsense peddling children, for example I don't agree with much Cameron says, but he's an adult. Same with Theresa May.

We haven't had the left in power for some time to have a proper judgement on how they behave in power but out of power there are clearly professional people wanting to achieve something good and have honest discussions.

Scrote will kick back against that though because he hates Starmer for kicking Corbyn out of the party and can't get past that. He dislikes anything political I post, and will try to undermine me rather than my point, purely because we've clashed that I want any labour government more than a Tory one. If he wants to try and undermine me rather than address the point, that says a lot about him and very little about me.
 
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BoroMart said:
It’s a non issue for most peoples day to
Day lives. Let people live their lives in a way that makes them happy, if that means being a trans woman so be it, in 99.9% of cases it hurts no one else. Ergo it’s a non-issue
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No it isn’t. To quote your 99.9%, that would mean that 1/1,000 does hurt someone, though of course you have zero empirical data to substantiate your assertion.
If you have read my posts you will know that I am supportive of people’s right to live their lives as they wish, unless that directly and adversely impacts on other people. Here we have two issues:
1) a small number of trans (male to female) are highly aggressive to those who wish to protect safe spaces for women and also their right not to have their sports subverted (you may wish to familiarise yourself with the striking Darlington nurses to appreciate that this very small number do exist), and
2) unscrupulous males who will exploit any loophole in the legislation.
Hence it is an issue.
 
The Ruthsayer said:
No it isn’t. To quote your 99.9%, that would mean that 1/1,000 does hurt someone, though of course you have zero empirical data to substantiate your assertion.
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I don't, but I'm not asserting they do hurt people, the ex-government is and they haven't given any empirical data for their claims.

The Ruthsayer said:
1) a small number of trans (male to female) are highly aggressive to those who wish to protect safe spaces for women and also their right not to have their sports subverted (you may wish to familiarise yourself with the striking Darlington nurses to appreciate that this very small number do exist), and
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a small number of people are aggressive, full stop. This isn't something specific or exceptional to trans people and isn't a reason to attack the entire trans community like this government has. There will always be outlier cases, that aren't representative of the norm.

The Ruthsayer said:
2) unscrupulous males who will exploit any loophole in the legislation.
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Do you have any empirical data to show that this is anything other than an outlier? That it has ever happened in anything but a tiny number of cases?

The Ruthsayer said:
Hence it is an issue.
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In seemingly such small numbers that maybe, attacking all trans people and by proxy the LGBQT+ community is in fact just dog whistling.
 
Scrote said:
How is it non-political to call one set of politicians "adults" and another "children"?

The "adults in the room" comment is usually directed at the left. Repurposing it for the right doesn't make it any less of a culture-war meme than the right calling the left "woke".


The referendum was advisory. The fact that A50 was invoked without any real discussion about what it might mean is something that should shame every politician involved, including Corbyn.
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I can't see how that is correct. Surely it doesn't matter with you are left or right leaning? Surely you can be off any political persuasion and act like a petulant child and you can be of any political persuasion and be measured and thoughtful. It just so happens currently the Tories are the former and Labour the latter
 
BoroMart said:
I don't, but I'm not asserting they do hurt people, the ex-government is and they haven't given any empirical data for their claims.


a small number of people are aggressive, full stop. This isn't something specific or exceptional to trans people and isn't a reason to attack the entire trans community like this government has. There will always be outlier cases, that aren't representative of the norm.


Do you have any empirical data to show that this is anything other than an outlier? That it has ever happened in anything but a tiny number of cases?


In seemingly such small numbers that maybe, attacking all trans people and by proxy the LGBQT+ community is in fact just dog whistling.
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The above arguments have been debated on here numerous times and I do not intend to rehearse them again. However, your final paragraph does deserve attention.
Would it surprise you to know that some of the most vociferous voices arguing for greater protection for women stem from the LGB sector.
Perhaps you might check out the LGB Alliance?
I’ve no idea what you mean by ‘dog whistling’.
Perhaps I’m too literal to indulge in the current fad for analogy.
 
The Ruthsayer said:
The above arguments have been debated on here numerous times and I do not intend to rehearse them again. However, your final paragraph does deserve attention.
Would it surprise you to know that some of the most vociferous voices arguing for greater protection for women stem from the LGB sector.
Perhaps you might check out the LGB Alliance?
I’ve no idea what you mean by ‘dog whistling’.
Perhaps I’m too literal to indulge in the current fad for analogy.
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So you don’t have any data to back it up, cool

So what’s your solution for the tiny minority of trans women that are a problem? Ban them from being within 10 yards of a woman alone? What’s your solution for the tiny minority of Muslim men that are trouble to women? Ban all Muslim men from from being within 10 yards of a lone woman? What’s your solution to the tiny minority of white heterosexual men that are trouble to women? Ban all whm from being within 10 yards of a lone woman? 👩 don’t want any woman to be made to be in a vulnerable situation but I also don’t want trans people to feel distrusted, hated, excluded from society…so what’s the solution?
 
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SmallTown said:
I can't see how that is correct. Surely it doesn't matter with you are left or right leaning? Surely you can be off any political persuasion and act like a petulant child and you can be of any political persuasion and be measured and thoughtful. It just so happens currently the Tories are the former and Labour the latter
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Yes, but if you're calling out an entire group, rather than the petulant actions of an individual, then it's being used as a political tool. Which is exactly how the culture-wars are 'managed'.

BoroMart said:
Scrote will kick back against that though because he hates Starmer for kicking Corbyn out of the party and can't get past that. He dislikes anything political I post, and will try to undermine me rather than my point, purely because we've clashed that I want any labour government more than a Tory one. If he wants to try and undermine me rather than address the point, that says a lot about him and very little about me.
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When have I ever said I hate Starmer? I got past Corbyn no longer being Labour leader a long time ago. The fact he lives rent-free in the heads of so many centrists isn't my fault.

You made a point about the culture wars being shutdown and then followed it up with a phrase that has regularly been used against the left to suggest that leftist politics are, in and of themselves, childish. It comes from the same place as the right calling things "woke", in my opinion.

How does that opinion do anything to undermine you? And which point have I failed to address?
 
festa5 said:
Saying some politicians need to act more grown up isn't culture wars.
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I fully agree. That wasn't what was said though. And it's certainly not how the phrase has been used when directed towards the left.
 
BoroMart said:
So you don’t have any data to back it up, cool

So what’s your solution for the tiny minority of trans women that are a problem? Ban them from being within 10 yards of a woman alone? What’s your solution for the tiny minority of Muslim men that are trouble to women? Ban all Muslim men from from being within 10 yards of a lone woman? What’s your solution to the tiny minority of white heterosexual men that are trouble to women? Ban all whm from being within 10 yards of a lone woman? 👩 don’t want any woman to be made to be in a vulnerable situation but I also don’t want trans people to feel distrusted, hated, excluded from society…so what’s the solution?
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Sorry Boromart, but that’s a rather bizarre post.
Men of all religions and atheists can be a threat to women, not just Muslims.
We have the capability to pass legislation that enshrines safe spaces and the authenticity of women’s sports (as many global bodies are beginning to do).
To your first point, of course there is no empirical data on the number of trans people committing offences, (they are listed as women, despite being in tact males, but I’m sure you knew that). But if you are genuinely unaware of the significant mental and physical harm caused to those who hold divergent views, from Guardian journalists being sacked, to MP’s needing police protection to octogenarian being beaten in New Zealand, then you need to wake up.
And to my LGB Alliance point, which you choose to ignore as it is not compatible with your narrative, I would add that I only have 4 gay female friends, all of whom are members after receiving abuse for refusing to engage in sexual relations with ‘trans women.
 
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Scrote said:
I fully agree. That wasn't what was said though. And it's certainly not how the phrase has been used when directed towards the left.
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What was said?

The thread title is "isn't it fantastic to have grown ups in charge again". I take that to mean (and I'd wager the majority do) that the last government did not behave in a grown up and serious manner (they didn't) and that this Labour government are expected to and are already showing signs of it.

I've not seen anyone direct it towards the left on this thread. If they have done elsewhere it's still not "culture wars" it's petty insults.

Every insult and criticism isn't culture wars. It'd be as bad as saying everything you don't like is woke.
 
Scrote said:
When have I ever said I hate Starmer? I got past Corbyn no longer being Labour leader a long time ago. The fact he lives rent-free in the heads of so many centrists isn't my fault.
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Of course you have 😂

Scrote said:
You made a point about the culture wars being shutdown and then followed it up with a phrase that has regularly been used against the left to suggest that leftist politics are, in and of themselves, childish. It comes from the same place as the right calling things "woke", in my opinion
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I repeated what a minister had said about culture wars. I happen to think multiple people in multiple parties but largely Tory have played childish games instead of being adults…if you chose to interpret that as being the same as calling people woke, well that mistake is on you.

Scrote said:
How does that opinion do anything to undermine you?
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You called me out as being the same as them in an an attempt to undermine my point, that’s how you operate. Again that’s on you not me. You could have just said yes, great about time all this culture war nonsense was dumped. You didn’t you decided to have sly dig at me
 
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