Isn’t it fantastic to have the grown ups in charge again?!

The Ruthsayer said:
Sorry Boromart, but that’s a rather bizarre post.
Men of all religions and atheists can be a threat to women, not just Muslims.
We have the capability to pass legislation that enshrines safe spaces and the authenticity of women’s sports (as many global bodies are beginning to do).
To your first point, of course there is no empirical data on the number of trans people committing offences, (they are listed as women, despite being in tact males, but I’m sure you knew that). But if you are genuinely unaware of the significant mental and physical harm caused to those who hold divergent views, from Guardian journalists being sacked, to MP’s needing police protection to octogenarian being beaten in New Zealand, then you need to wake up.
And to my LGB Alliance point, which you choose to ignore as it is not compatible with your narrative, I would add that I only have 4 gay female friends, all of whom are members after receiving abuse for refusing to engage in sexual relations with ‘trans women.
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I agree with trans not being part of women’s sport. The years of testosterone are a physical advantage, the skeleto-muscular frame is an advantage.

So we both agree there is no empirical data about the dangers of trans people…so why has the last Home Secretary and right wing on line hate figures like Laurence fox acted like this is some big danger?

I haven’t chosen to ignore and I have no ‘narrative’ to push. I don’t pretend to have the answers. I know one young trans man, a friend of my daughter, who spent years as a girl and was suicidal. I am a member of a widow and widower group one member is a trans woman and was living ‘constrained’ as a man in a marriage and is now a living as a woman and feeling happy with life. Good luck to her. I refuse to align with the right wing nutjobs at gb news on this and wish hate on these people. I want to treat everyone as an individual and give them the right to be what they want if it harms no one else and for these two people it doesn’t. In fact they might both have killed themselves if they couldn’t live like this. They’ve both faced abuse, hate bullying, threats. I don’t have the answer to “women’s safe spaces” or toilets as some people call them. But I do know it is being used to stoke hate, and I’m not down with that. I do know that multi gender toilets exist through out the world too, plenty of places in this country have toilets that are not designated by gender…and nobody batted an eyelid over it 20 years ago. There is too much fear over people that live their lives in an alternate manner to ‘the norm’. Let people be their best selves and unless they’ve shown they are a danger don’t treat them as a danger. Give them a bit of respect and dignity.

Like I said do YOU have a solution to this? That doesn’t prejudice against trans people?
 
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BoroMart said:
I repeated what a minister had said about culture wars. I happen to think multiple people in multiple parties but largely Tory have played childish games instead of being adults…if you chose to interpret that as being the same as calling people woke, well that mistake is on you.
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Here's a poster advocating that Labour has 'adult' conversations. Three guesses who 🤔

Screenshot_20240709_223254_Samsung Internet.jpg
 
3 working days in and all the Ex-Forces I know are moaning about a Labour Cabinet in Downing Street. Marvellous.
 
Corcaigh_the_Cat said:
There are women within the Labour Party, some on the left, voicing concerns too.
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Im sure there are. It’s a very complex issue which some people try to simplify, with complete disregard for large numbers of people and then expand far beyond discussions of “women’s safe spaces” into just general prejudice and intolerance
 
BoroMart said:
You called me out as being the same as them in an an attempt to undermine my point, that’s how you operate. Again that’s on you not me. You could have just said yes, great about time all this culture war nonsense was dumped. You didn’t you decided to have sly dig at me
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I questioned your use of an insult in the same breath as you celebrating someone for trying to shutdown insults. If you don't see it as an insult then, fine - carry on. I do. It gets used against the left, as an insult, regularly by centrists.

I'm not sure how openly questioning something on a public message board can constitute a "sly dig".

LessoftheLip said:
Here's a poster advocating that Labour has 'adult' conversations. Three guesses who 🤔
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BoroMart said:
Sounds like a scrote quote
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BoroMart said:
I’d never have pegged scrote as a hypocrite 😂
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Do you think something being a "dog's dinner" is the same as something being "the dogs bolx" because both phrases have the word "dog" in them?

Having an "adult conversation" is neutral. It just means looking at, and treating something, seriously.

Saying that "the adults are back in charge" or any variation thereof isn't neutral. It means that the 'other' you're directing it isn't capable of doing the thing being discussed. It's an insult.
 
Scrote said:
Yes, but if you're calling out an entire group, rather than the petulant actions of an individual, then it's being used as a political tool. Which is exactly how the culture-wars are managed
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Name me one member if the Tory party who hans acted like a petulant child. Hasn't voted along party lines on nasty, childish and reactionary policies like Rwanda?

No, it isn't culture wars to say the last Tory government was immature, puerile and unfit to govern. It's merely fact
 
Scrote said:
I questioned your use of an insult in the same breath as you celebrating someone for trying to shutdown insults. If you don't see it as an insult then, fine - carry on. I do. It gets used against the left, as an insult, regularly by centrists.

I'm not sure how openly questioning something on a public message board can constitute a "sly dig".




Do you think something being a "dog's dinner" is the same as something being "the dogs bolx" because both phrases have the word "dog" in them?

Having an "adult conversation" is neutral. It just means looking at, and treating something, seriously.

Saying that "the adults are back in charge" or any variation thereof isn't neutral. It means that the 'other' you're directing it isn't capable of doing the thing being discussed. It's an insult.
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I just knew you'd double down rather than agree it's a fair cop. That's why I originally blocked you, because you're dishonest in debate.


.....and just to be clear playing the man not the ball leads to a dull, personalised, and pointless conversation. Just stick to the subject Scrote, instead of having a go at individuals because they've annoyed you in a past discussion. This thread is supposed to be about the culture of the new government compared to the old one, not about me or you. The new government is a far more interesting and impactful discussion.
 
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SmallTown said:
Name me one member if the Tory party who hans acted like a petulant child. Hasn't voted along party lines on nasty, childish and reactionary policies like Rwanda?

No, it isn't culture wars to say the last Tory government was immature, puerile and unfit to govern. It's merely fact
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culture always flows downwards, and the decent into this unfit to govern government occured for me when Johnson was in charge. His choice of language, mockery, acting like the class clown, it was all part of dragging standards downwards and trying to fight in the gutter. I mean Nadine Dorries must be the single least capable person of governing, a scowling, bullying, teenage angst in the body of a 60 year old woman. When you enable and empower something as childish as her, then it will flow downwards and outwards through the government. They never really really recovered from that period.

The Tory Party is now at a crossroads, like the republican party in the US was last year; do they double down on the childish rhetoric and have the peurile leadership, or turn back to being adults with a different opinion. I wouldn't be surprised to see "Bring Back Boris" as a movement, because he "got them a massive majority", in reality brexit rhetoric got him that majority, and it would be a disaster for them.
 
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BoroMart said:
I agree with trans not being part of women’s sport. The years of testosterone are a physical advantage, the skeleto-muscular frame is an advantage.

So we both agree there is no empirical data about the dangers of trans people…so why has the last Home Secretary and right wing on line hate figures like Laurence fox acted like this is some big danger?

I haven’t chosen to ignore and I have no ‘narrative’ to push. I don’t pretend to have the answers. I know one young trans man, a friend of my daughter, who spent years as a girl and was suicidal. I am a member of a widow and widower group one member is a trans woman and was living ‘constrained’ as a man in a marriage and is now a living as a woman and feeling happy with life. Good luck to her. I refuse to align with the right wing nutjobs at gb news on this and wish hate on these people. I want to treat everyone as an individual and give them the right to be what they want if it harms no one else and for these two people it doesn’t. In fact they might both have killed themselves if they couldn’t live like this. They’ve both faced abuse, hate bullying, threats. I don’t have the answer to “women’s safe spaces” or toilets as some people call them. But I do know it is being used to stoke hate, and I’m not down with that. I do know that multi gender toilets exist through out the world too, plenty of places in this country have toilets that are not designated by gender…and nobody batted an eyelid over it 20 years ago. There is too much fear over people that live their lives in an alternate manner to ‘the norm’. Let people be their best selves and unless they’ve shown they are a danger don’t treat them as a danger. Give them a bit of respect and dignity.

Like I said do YOU have a solution to this? That doesn’t prejudice against trans people?
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Thanks for the considered and reasonable response. We agree on much here; but do remember that there are no stats on trans violence, because it is not recorded as such. We have cases where the rapist is listed as a women (thereby distorting critical data).
What we do have is intolerance on both sides. I only know one trans person, and they are horrified by the actions of the trans activists (those who use the term ‘terf’) as they have made life much more difficult for them. (Most of these activists are not trans).
The solution? For me it is to not allow any intact males within safe spaces. Yes, that does impinge on certain peoples’ rights, but that is preferable to allowing others to exploit the flexibility that an assigned GRC certificate allows. Not perfect, but when you have two diametrically opposed views, there is no middle ground.
 
The Ruthsayer said:
Thanks for the considered and reasonable response. We agree on much here; but do remember that there are no stats on trans violence, because it is not recorded as such. We have cases where the rapist is listed as a women (thereby distorting critical data).
What we do have is intolerance on both sides. I only know one trans person, and they are horrified by the actions of the trans activists (those who use the term ‘terf’) as they have made life much more difficult for them. (Most of these activists are not trans).
The solution? For me it is to not allow any intact males within safe spaces. Yes, that does impinge on certain peoples’ rights, but that is preferable to allowing others to exploit the flexibility that an assigned GRC certificate allows. Not perfect, but when you have two diametrically opposed views, there is no middle ground.
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I guess I am evidence not rhetoric based, if evidence shows a real problem with trans violence against women, then appropriate levels of action should be taken. But I don't agree with blanket bans on trans simply because of a handful of cases making the press, largely the right wing press.

I'm not sure what the intolerance is from trans supporters, other than intolerance of intolerance. I would never use terms like terf/woke they create entrenchment. Correct many activists are not trans, but I don't think they need to be. I'm not even sure the term activist is appropriate for most people that speak out on the subject.

I hear your solution, but I'm sure you will be aware of the complexities and impacts, what constitutes a "safe space", are you saying post op then they can use 'safe spaces'? Wouldn't this pressure those deciding if they are going to go through gender re-assignment ops to make a hasty decision? If they are trans pre-op, would they be in greater danger of violence when going to a male toilet, than any alleged violence against women from trans in female toilets? It's really a very complex scenario, and that's why I believe that data is necessary to understand the impact of such decisions. I absolutely agree that there is no perfect solution, which is why that solution really needs to be properly researched into the impacts rather than rhetoric based because there are vulnerable lives at stake.
 
BoroMart said:
I guess I am evidence not rhetoric based, if evidence shows a real problem with trans violence against women, then appropriate levels of action should be taken. But I don't agree with blanket bans on trans simply because of a handful of cases making the press, largely the right wing press.

I'm not sure what the intolerance is from trans supporters, other than intolerance of intolerance. I would never use terms like terf/woke they create entrenchment. Correct many activists are not trans, but I don't think they need to be. I'm not even sure the term activist is appropriate for most people that speak out on the subject.

I hear your solution, but I'm sure you will be aware of the complexities and impacts, what constitutes a "safe space", are you saying post op then they can use 'safe spaces'? Wouldn't this pressure those deciding if they are going to go through gender re-assignment ops to make a hasty decision? If they are trans pre-op, would they be in greater danger of violence when going to a male toilet, than any alleged violence against women from trans in female toilets? It's really a very complex scenario, and that's why I believe that data is necessary to understand the impact of such decisions. I absolutely agree that there is no perfect solution, which is why that solution really needs to be properly researched into the impacts rather than rhetoric based because there are vulnerable lives at stake.
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Many valid points and I certainly didn’t claim my solution was perfect.
I, too, am evidence based (working with actuaries for 30 years does that to you), but as I said above, if we aren’t collecting data, then we can only adduce incidents that are reported.
Yes, some of this is in the right wing press, but a great deal is also cited withon women’s On-line news feeds.
 
SmallTown said:
Name me one member if the Tory party who hans acted like a petulant child. Hasn't voted along party lines on nasty, childish and reactionary policies like Rwanda?

No, it isn't culture wars to say the last Tory government was immature, puerile and unfit to govern. It's merely fact
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Unless you're stating that every Tory voting on party lines (presumably whipped for the most part) is a child then one obvious example would be Jeremy Hunt. Always comes across as professional no matter which institution he's destroying.
 
Scrote said:
Unless you're stating that every Tory voting on party lines (presumably whipped for the most part) is a child then one obvious example would be Jeremy Hunt. Always comes across as professional no matter which institution he's destroying.
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I am yes. Someone who "comes across" as professional but still votes on petty, nasty and puerile things is petty nasty and puerile. Actions speaking louder than words.
 
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