If there was a General Election tomorrow...

[SNOWBANDIT]

Reform - because I can

 

[Frozen Horse]

So if the party of the left represents the people of the left you won't vote for it? Makes sense.

If a party represents me, I'll vote for it.

If its Left of the party where Corbyn sat then yes. Labour will never get into power with a left wing leader in modern times. Ask Michael Foot, Neil Kinnock or Corbyn. Better still look at Tony Blair who knew that to make a difference you had to get into power first.

Agreed. My problem with those further left in the Labour party is that I perceive them as caring more about principles than about people. You may be able to keep your principles in pristine condition, but you're not helping anyone.

 

[speckyget]

Look at my previous reply Specky. Main point raised is the green party can say what they like, they wont have to implement it.

Well you might as well argue all parties who aren't Tory or Labour should abandon having policies because they won't be in a position to do anything about them. The point is you vote for what a party stands for. If enough people vote for a party with a return agenda, the politicians who do wield power may one day feel constrained to take the wax out of their ears.

 

[Unravel_Morrison]

You are right. I don't see the point of having rejoin as a stretch goal. Ultimately the EU wouldn't even entertain those discussions at the moment. Closer alignment is the best we can hope for in the next parliament. There is so much to unpick.

The green party can aspire to this and know they will never have to deliver it.

Well, you can argue that about any of the very smallest parties and most policies as things stand but it's what their members seem to want and in one sense at least they're being more honest about it than the Tories and Labour, who seem les willing to say exactly what it is they want to do.

In terms of rejoining I still think the party most likely to take us back in are a future Tory Party at the behest of business.

 

[Unravel_Morrison]

Reform - because I can

Fair play; every Tory vote lost is a good one and offering to help Labour form a government is a principled stand.

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

I'm voting Tory just to **** everyone off.

 

[Blf]

I agree and I would far prefer a Starmer led Labour party to be in charge than a Tory party but that isn't the same as saying I want a Starmer led Labour party to be in charge.

My gripe with people like BLF saying "Any hint of a switch to the left by Labour would lose my vote." is just admitting he is a Tory and he doesn't like the current version of the Tories. As soon as Labour try doing anything positive people like him will be running back to the Tories. He isn't interested in change. He is happy with the country being used as a way to funnel money to the already wealthy. He just prefers it when it is other people's money and not his and I assume the current crop of Tories have messed up so badly it is now affecting BLF.

You really haven't got a clue. "People like BLF." I spent 6 years as a shop steward in the steel works including 3 months on strike. I was a steward for CHOSE and Unison in the NHS. I have helped organise marches that had 250,000 people attending them to fight for the NHS Apart from not voting for Corbyn at the last election I have voted Labour at every general ,local , Mayoral and European election for the last 47 years. If you read my posts I made it clear I do not want the party to move to the left where Corbyn sat as was the case for the majority of people who voted at the last election.
My gripe with people like you is you open your mouth about people without having a clue about them.

 

[Nano]

You really haven't got a clue. "People like BLF." I spent 6 years as a shop steward in the steel works including 3 months on strike. I was a steward for CHOSE and Unison in the NHS. I have helped organise marches that had 250,000 people attending them to fight for the NHS Apart from not voting for Corbyn at the last election I have voted Labour at every general ,local , Mayoral and European election for the last 47 years. If you read my posts I made it clear I do not want the party to move to the left where Corbyn sat as was the case for the majority of people who voted at the last ele tion.
My gripe with people like you is you open your mouth about people without having a clue about them.

Yes, it would be horrible if Labour moved to the left and tried helping people.

People like you, 100%. The people that will only vote when Labour will win by being in the centre. It makes no sense. That sort of position is worse than voting Tory every time. You are ensuring that only centre and right wing parties win which means the country is stuck centre right. Even if you wanted the country to be in the centre it would make far more sense to vote left wing because then the equilibrium point is in the centre. I don't know what sort of mental gymnastics you have to pull to convince yourself that you can't vote for a left wing Labour government but you do want things to improve. I can understand not liking Corbyn, the person, but his policies were there to actually improve things for the majority of people. You said "Any hint of a switch to the left by Labour would lose my vote." and I don't know what you expect anyone to take from that other than you don't like left-wing policies because that sentence has nothing to do with Corbyn.

If you aren't interested in left wing policies then what exactly do you want to see change when Labour win because it sounds to me a lot like you wanting Labour to just deliver Tory policy in a more competent manner?

 

[Paintolerance]

You really haven't got a clue. "People like BLF." I spent 6 years as a shop steward in the steel works including 3 months on strike. I was a steward for CHOSE and Unison in the NHS. I have helped organise marches that had 250,000 people attending them to fight for the NHS Apart from not voting for Corbyn at the last election I have voted Labour at every general ,local , Mayoral and European election for the last 47 years. If you read my posts I made it clear I do not want the party to move to the left where Corbyn sat as was the case for the majority of people who voted at the last ele tion.
My gripe with people like you is you open your mouth about people without having a clue about them.

The problem (for me at least) is I don't currently see Labour as centre left. I think they are soft right (with a bit of pandering to the 'stop the boats' folks thrown in, unfortunately). Starmer daren't go for a p*ss for fear of upsetting the media.

So, its a competent, less extreme version of the current lot. An improvement of course - but this country doesn't need same old, same old. Britain is, to use a cliche, broken. It needs substantive change - its needs to address the huge societal and, yes, humanitarian issues we face. I don't see Labours plans addressing that properly. I think they'll just stop the bleeding.

 

[LaPennaBianca]

I never said he was, he still would be classed as Oxbridge.

What's the issue with intelligent people who went to two of the best universities in the world?

 

[Frozen Horse]

So, its a competent, less extreme version of the current lot. An improvement of course - but this country doesn't need same old, same old. Britain is, to use a cliche, broken. It needs substantive change - its needs to address the huge societal and, yes, humanitarian issues we face. I don't see Labours plans addressing that properly. I think they'll just stop the bleeding.

What I don't understand about your position is acknowledging that it's an improvement, but also calling it same old. I think you're point is that it doesn't go far enough, but that's no reason not to vote for something you consider an improvement, is it? Plans for substantive change are no use at all unless said party can be elected?

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

What I don't understand about your position is acknowledging that it's an improvement, but also calling it same old. I think you're point is that it doesn't go far enough, but that's no reason not to vote for something you consider an improvement, is it? Plans for substantive change are no use at all unless said party can be elected?

I don't understand people who don't understand this position. Let's say there are two major parties that can win an election and a bunch of minor ones who can't. Both leading parties adopt a policy of shooting the homeless. Therefore there is no point in voting for a party that opposes shooting the homeless as they can't get elected.

 

[Frozen Horse]

I don't understand people who don't understand this position. Let's say there are two major parties that can win an election and a bunch of minor ones who can't. Both leading parties adopt a policy of shooting the homeless. Therefore there is no point in voting for a party that opposes shooting the homeless as they can't get elected.

I don't understand.

 

[Trug]

I am a Labour Part member but I am not enamoured with Starmer. And the more I hear from him , Streeting, and Reeves, the less I like. The LP used to be a broad church but left wingers are increasingly being isolated.
If Starmer wins by the predicted landslide then he can enact any policy he likes. There would be no need of fearing the left. Don't be like the Tories who use their large majorities to feed only themselves. and use the large majority for the benefit of us all- go further than Blair did. However, I don't see that in the present LP. I will vote Labour though.

 

[Nano]

I don't understand.

That is what Starmer is relying on.

 

[WJH.]

At the moment I think Labour but that could change as I'm still annoyed we have left the EU so could switch to the Greens.
I like Starmer and couldn't stand Corbyn. Any hint of a switch to the left by Labour would lose my vote. We need to get into power to have any effect on the way the country is run. The only way we will do that is with a Labour party pitching itself in the centre.

Apart fom not voting for Corbyn at the last election I have voted0 pLabour at every general ,local , Mayoral and European election for the last 47 years. If you read my posts I made it clear I do not want the party to move to the left where Corbyn sat as was the case for the majority of people who voted at the last election.
My gripe with people like you is you open your mouth about people without having a clue about them.

My problem with those further left in the Labour party is that I perceive them as caring more about principles than about people. You may be able to keep your principles in pristine condition, but you're not helping anyone.

Frozen Horse, your response to BLF was a ironic right?

 

[Laughing]

Well you might as well argue all parties who aren't Tory or Labour should abandon having policies because they won't be in a position to do anything about them. The point is you vote for what a party stands for. If enough people vote for a party with a return agenda, the politicians who do wield power may one day feel constrained to take the wax out of their ears.

Thats not really what I am saying Specky. I am saying that Labour stand to loose a lot more than the green party by vowing to "eventually" rejoin the EU. It may well be enough to loose them the next election.

They can promise closer ties to the EU.

The Green Party won't loose an election with this as a stated aim, Labour would.

It simply isn't true that Labour will not eventually seek to rejoin the EU in some form or another, but there is a lot to unpick. We can't, for example be part of the cpttp and the Eu. i don't even suppose the green party has considered this, they don't have to. Labour will, eventually, propose customs union/single market, and to be honest I would be happy with that. They will do this when it is, politically, the right time. Right now today, if Labour announced we would be rejoining the EU plenty of voters, even those who would ideally never have left, would slap their forheads and think "here we go again". It would be a bad policy if you want to win an election.

 

[Laughing]

Well, you can argue that about any of the very smallest parties and most policies as things stand but it's what their members seem to want and in one sense at least they're being more honest about it than the Tories and Labour, who seem les willing to say exactly what it is they want to do.

In terms of rejoining I still think the party most likely to take us back in are a future Tory Party at the behest of business.

Having the same discussion with Specky to Unravel. I don't agree about honesty, but see my reply to specky why I don't.

 

[WJH.]

Thats not really what I am saying Specky. I am saying that Labour stand to loose a lot more than the green party by vowing to "eventually" rejoin the EU. It may well be enough to loose them the next election.

They can promise closer ties to the EU.

The Green Party won't loose an election with this as a stated aim, Labour would.

It simply isn't true that Labour will not eventually seek to rejoin the EU in some form or another, but there is a lot to unpick. We can't, for example be part of the cpttp and the Eu. i don't even suppose the green party has considered this, they don't have to. Labour will, eventually, propose customs union/single market, and to be honest I would be happy with that. They will do this when it is, politically, the right time. Right now today, if Labour announced we would be rejoining the EU plenty of voters, even those who would ideally never have left, would slap their forheads and think "here we go again". It would be a bad policy if you want to win an election.

That's just misinformation

What are you basing any if this on?

 

[NYboro]

Thats not really what I am saying Specky. I am saying that Labour stand to loose a lot more than the green party by vowing to "eventually" rejoin the EU. It may well be enough to loose them the next election.

They can promise closer ties to the EU.

The Green Party won't loose an election with this as a stated aim, Labour would.

It simply isn't true that Labour will not eventually seek to rejoin the EU in some form or another, but there is a lot to unpick. We can't, for example be part of the cpttp and the Eu. i don't even suppose the green party has considered this, they don't have to. Labour will, eventually, propose customs union/single market, and to be honest I would be happy with that. They will do this when it is, politically, the right time. Right now today, if Labour announced we would be rejoining the EU plenty of voters, even those who would ideally never have left, would slap their forheads and think "here we go again". It would be a bad policy if you want to win an election.

Easy to exit the CPTTP and we should do that anyway, as it's of negligible benefit.