Hartlepool Constituency Poll

newyddion said:
are you comparing Wilson, Blair and Attlee to Hodge, Philips & Starmer?

I would say that Tony Blair pushed the party to far to the right and making the party unelectable. Jess Philips has a very mixed position but her outstanding contribution seems to be that of 'stabbing her colleagues' in the front as she so eloquently put it. Starmer meanwhile after resigning n 2016, painting labour as 'the party of remain' in 2019 has done very little in my view apart from being instrumental in tanking the last two elections.

I can't for the life of me see any of Wilson, Blair or Attlee in either one of them.

In Jess Philips I can see a lot of Jo Swinson , in Keir Starmer I see Chuka Umunna and in Margaret Hodge I see someone who would be much more comfortable on the other side of the floor. Conservative in everything but name.
Basically two hapless, disingenuous lib dems and a dyed in the wool tory.
Click to expand...
Not comparing them at all just saying that they do have Labour values, not Corbyn's obviously, but values that resonate with people who have traditionally voted Labour when they have won elections. If Blair pushed the party so far to the right making them un electable how did he manage to win three terms? In the end it was the banking crash which did for Labour, even then with someone more voter friendly and less tribal, like say Alan Johnson, they could have clung on to power in 2010.
 
Otto42 said:
Those you quote while not in the Benn, Foot and Corbyn mould are certainly in Wilson, Blair and Attlee mould (the ones who won elections!)
Click to expand...

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion but that's bonkers.

Attlee's government completely changed the country. Wilson kept us out of the Vietnam war against the USAs wishes. Even Blair brought in reforms to the House of Lords and the devolved Parliaments around the UK.

What have Hodge, Philips and Streeting ever done? What has Starmer ever said he'd do this last year? Some new savings bonds isn't quite the same level is it?
 
SuperStu said:
Obviously you're entitled to your opinion but that's bonkers.

Attlee's government completely changed the country. Wilson kept us out of the Vietnam war against the USAs wishes. Even Blair brought in reforms to the House of Lords and the devolved Parliaments around the UK.

What have Hodge, Philips and Streeting ever done? What has Starmer ever said he'd do this last year? Some new savings bonds isn't quite the same level is it?
Click to expand...
It's not about what they have done it's about what I think they believe, guess we aren't ever going to agree if you think my opinion is bonkers!
 
Otto42 said:
Not comparing them at all just saying that they do have Labour values, not Corbyn's obviously, but values that resonate with people who have traditionally voted Labour when they have won elections. If Blair pushed the party so far to the right making them un electable how did he manage to won three terms? In the end it was the banking crash which did for Labour, even then with someone more voter friendly and less tribal, like say Alan Johnson, they could have clung on to power in 2010.
Click to expand...
The 2010 election was the one which showed the Tories they could lie their way to victory by saying absolutely anything (Labour to blame for the financial crash) and if enough people wanted to believe it then they were in. Lib Dem’s (we will get rid of tuition fees) was another key lie.

Unfortunately for Cameron and Osborne they had to resign when the same tactic worked against them in the EU referendum when Farage and Bunter successfully lied against them (nhs funding, sovereignty, immigration, trade deals, Turkey, etc)

Be interesting to see which lie eventually sees Boris off and whether it emanates from the 1922 or another political party.
 
Otto42 said:
Not comparing them at all just saying that they do have Labour values, not Corbyn's obviously, but values that resonate with people who have traditionally voted Labour when they have won elections. If Blair pushed the party so far to the right making them un electable how did he manage to win three terms? In the end it was the banking crash which did for Labour, even then with someone more voter friendly and less tribal, like say Alan Johnson, they could have clung on to power in 2010.
Click to expand...
he conservatives rebranded with the 'just call me dave' schtick and their crayon scribble tree., they we coming across as the softer option. gordon brown couldn't crack a smile if his life depended on it.. people wanted the labour party that they had voted for. not the apparent neo-liberal/thatcherite war mongering machine it turned out to be.

add into this Dave Cameron's bessie Bullingdon club mate Nick Clegg touting proportional representation and free university tuition and you have the perfect storm of disaffected labour voters jumping ship to the liberal democrats and on the fence haven't got a clues putting an x next to the guy who looks like he drives an audi and buys furniture from ikea.

A RIGHT WING LABOUR PARTY WILL NEVER GET INTO POWER - people prefer the real thing! Hard core conservative voters are not going to leave the conservative party. Labour needs to fix Labour and start acting like the Labour Party.

Ian Lavery would be a good start, we need to win back the north, we should jump onto proportional representation and bring democracy to Westminster. compulsory reselection, no second jobs for MPs get the NHS back into public ownership. make the case.. none of this will happen tho.
 
One person's right Labour leader is another's wrong one, there is no compromise anymore, no patience to allow time for strategy or policy to be developed and anything that can be jumped on that's "proof" they are the wrong person is received with glee.

Labour are held to a standard that cannot be maintained, its MP's are expected to unite but also be free in expressing their views then attacked if that view is the wrong one for their "side".

No matter who is Labour leader they will have to fight against the media current just to keep their head above water and while everyone is debating on their ability to swim, the Tories are busy gaslighting the nation with their blatant lies and handing £billions over to their mates.

I'm beginning to believe people are willing to vote Tory simply because it's the path of least resistance.

Headlines instead of detail.
 
Chris_Boro said:
One person's right Labour leader is another's wrong one, there is no compromise anymore, no patience to allow time for strategy or policy to be developed and anything that can be jumped on that's "proof" they are the wrong person is received with glee.

Labour are held to a standard that cannot be maintained, its MP's are expected to unite but also be free in expressing their views then attacked if that view is the wrong one for their "side".

No matter who is Labour leader they will have to fight against the media current just to keep their head above water and while everyone is debating on their ability to swim, the Tories are busy gaslighting the nation with their blatant lies and handing £billions over to their mates.

I'm beginning to believe people are willing to vote Tory simply because it's the path of least resistance.

Headlines instead of detail.
Click to expand...
It’s a very confused working class just now, and hardly surprising with all the lies that have been spread for a number of years from very rich manipulative people holding pints of beer, drinking pots of tea and wearing high vis jackets and hard hats saying ‘listen to me, I’m just like you. ‘
 
Otto42 said:
It's not about what they have done it's about what I think they believe
Click to expand...

Sounds like a personality cult. ;)

Chris_Boro said:
No matter who is Labour leader they will have to fight against the media current just to keep their head above water
Click to expand...

I don't really think Starmer's had a tough time from the media tbh. Certainly not by comparison to the previous 3 party leaders.
 
Chris_Boro said:
One person's right Labour leader is another's wrong one, there is no compromise anymore, no patience to allow time for strategy or policy to be developed and anything that can be jumped on that's "proof" they are the wrong person is received with glee.

Labour are held to a standard that cannot be maintained, its MP's are expected to unite but also be free in expressing their views then attacked if that view is the wrong one for their "side".

No matter who is Labour leader they will have to fight against the media current just to keep their head above water and while everyone is debating on their ability to swim, the Tories are busy gaslighting the nation with their blatant lies and handing £billions over to their mates.

I'm beginning to believe people are willing to vote Tory simply because it's the path of least resistance.

Headlines instead of detail.
Click to expand...
This debate between left and right of the Labour movement has gone on since Labour first came into being, don't think it's one that can be finally settled on a Boro message board on an April afternoon unfortunately 😂 UTB
 
SuperStu said:
Sounds like a personality cult. ;)



I don't really think Starmer's had a tough time from the media tbh. Certainly not by comparison to the previous 3 party leaders.
Click to expand...

No he hasn't, not yet anyway. Would you say that whenever he does get media exposure he's he gets a fair crack at the whip?
 
Otto42 said:
This debate between left and right of the Labour movement has gone on since Labour first came into being, don't think it's one that can be finally settled on a Boro message board on an April afternoon unfortunately 😂 UTB
Click to expand...

That is true.

Although I do feel that it's currently more polarised with the rise of social media aiding those views.
 
asredastheycome said:
You surely don't think things like bailing out a steel works are made at local level:oops:
Click to expand...
Alan_Breck said -At the 2019 General Election I think that people in the North East woke up to the fact that Labour has dominated for many years with little or nothing to show for it. We were the manufacturing, heavy engineering heartland of the UK, and that's all gone whilst under decades of local Labour administration for instance Baird couldn't, or wouldn't, save Redcar steel when Blair was PM. The Tories dominance has come about purely on the "I want change" vote as it couldn't be any worse, or can it, only time will tell? In truth this region has been thoroughly neglected since the end of WWII by all parties and taken for granted to secure Westminster seats so is it time for the Giant Hercules to be been reawakened?
Let me make this plain - I am Labour through and through. When Labour was elected in 1997 we had suffered 18 years or Tory misery. Most of our manufacturing industry was destroyed and unemployment had hit higher levels than in the Great Depression of the 1920's. shipyards, steel, foundries, catering, chemical, light engineering, retail and just about anything else you could name was hit. And hit hard. Levels of unemployment benefit were reduced (£26 per week in 1987. ) Income Tax levels were reduced- but of course this only affected those who actually had a job. VAT was almost doubled form 8.5% to 15% and then to 17.5% under Major. When people complained Thatcher called us "Moaning Minnies", -Lamont called it "A price worth paying". Queues were forming at places where there was even a rumour of a job that might possibly be available. There was no minimum wage. Employers could and did pay whatever they liked. And it was not much because if you did not want to work for that pittance, there were literally millions who would.
So what did Blair do for our area after his election- the short answer is fk all. The long answer is also fk all. He could have invested in heavy engineering in our area. He could have reopened or even rebuilt shipyards for Royal Navy ship building and repairs. Yes, it would have cost money. But that money would have been returned manyfold in tax receipts etc. He did absolutely nothing for employment in our area .FKN NOTHING. And yet..............he still offered more that any Tory did. Sure Start was a good example. More help for disadvantaged kids. More investment in schools. But to me his biggest failure was not Iraq, it was his failure to understand or if he di then he ignored the problems and plight of of unemployed people.
I am still a Labour party member because I do believe in the values that Labour hold. And hopefully a future Labour government will correct the wrongs that have been blighted upon us by the Tories Because the alternative is a horrendous repeat of Thatcher.
 
Trug said:
Alan_Breck said -At the 2019 General Election I think that people in the North East woke up to the fact that Labour has dominated for many years with little or nothing to show for it. We were the manufacturing, heavy engineering heartland of the UK, and that's all gone whilst under decades of local Labour administration for instance Baird couldn't, or wouldn't, save Redcar steel when Blair was PM. The Tories dominance has come about purely on the "I want change" vote as it couldn't be any worse, or can it, only time will tell? In truth this region has been thoroughly neglected since the end of WWII by all parties and taken for granted to secure Westminster seats so is it time for the Giant Hercules to be been reawakened?
Let me make this plain - I am Labour through and through. When Labour was elected in 1997 we had suffered 18 years or Tory misery. Most of our manufacturing industry was destroyed and unemployment had hit higher levels than in the Great Depression of the 1920's. shipyards, steel, foundries, catering, chemical, light engineering, retail and just about anything else you could name was hit. And hit hard. Levels of unemployment benefit were reduced (£26 per week in 1987. ) Income Tax levels were reduced- but of course this only affected those who actually had a job. VAT was almost doubled form 8.5% to 15% and then to 17.5% under Major. When people complained Thatcher called us "Moaning Minnies", -Lamont called it "A price worth paying". Queues were forming at places where there was even a rumour of a job that might possibly be available. There was no minimum wage. Employers could and did pay whatever they liked. And it was not much because if you did not want to work for that pittance, there were literally millions who would.
So what did Blair do for our area after his election- the short answer is fk all. The long answer is also fk all. He could have invested in heavy engineering in our area. He could have reopened or even rebuilt shipyards for Royal Navy ship building and repairs. Yes, it would have cost money. But that money would have been returned manyfold in tax receipts etc. He did absolutely nothing for employment in our area .FKN NOTHING. And yet..............he still offered more that any Tory did. Sure Start was a good example. More help for disadvantaged kids. More investment in schools. But to me his biggest failure was not Iraq, it was his failure to understand or if he di then he ignored the problems and plight of of unemployed people.
I am still a Labour party member because I do believe in the values that Labour hold. And hopefully a future Labour government will correct the wrongs that have been blighted upon us by the Tories Because the alternative is a horrendous repeat of Thatcher.
Click to expand...
Unemployment higher than 76-80 & 89-90, national debt at a record high, record borrowing, publicly owned assets sold off, paying more than ever, homelessness at record levels, huge impact on civil freedoms, freedom of expression, everything tracked and recorded, Johnson and his buddies raiding the coffers. The Labour party are screaming out for Thatcherism.. I say screaming. comfortably sitting and watching. Making sure to call anyone who mentions public ownership an anti semite.
 
newyddion said:
Unemployment higher than 76-80 & 89-90, national debt at a record high, record borrowing, publicly owned assets sold off, paying more than ever, homelessness at record levels, huge impact on civil freedoms, freedom of expression, everything tracked and recorded, Johnson and his buddies raiding the coffers. The Labour party are screaming out for Thatcherism.. I say screaming. comfortably sitting and watching. Making sure to call anyone who mentions public ownership an anti semite.
Click to expand...
I liked what Corbyn had to offer-I just thought he was a poor leader and am puzzled as to how he was elected leader twice- both with resounding majorities. Thatcherism was truly evil. I am 66 now and was lucky that I survived the Thatcher axe. I had a few mates who all worked at British steel at the same time as me and were made redundant. They worked at various plants. They are all dead now. Some never reached their 40's. I don't care what the death certificate says, they were proud men and they died of unemployment. Call me biter if you like. You would be right. One of those men was my brother
 
Trug said:
I liked what Corbyn had to offer-I just thought he was a poor leader and am puzzled as to how he was elected leader twice- both with resounding majorities. Thatcherism was truly evil. I am 66 now and was lucky that I survived the Thatcher axe. I had a few mates who all worked at British steel at the same time as me and were made redundant. They worked at various plants. They are all dead now. Some never reached their 40's. I don't care what the death certificate says, they were proud men and they died of unemployment. Call me biter if you like. You would be right. One of those men was my brother
Click to expand...
I saw the effect unemployment had on folks in the 80s/early 90s.. pretty grim.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top