Genuine question for EV owners

[Billy69_uk]

So it’s an argument based on a supposition but without a single thread of evidence. Got you

its not an argument. Its merely my honest opinion based on many many years working with vehicle manufacturers and the aftermarket channel.

Its not a negative comment on the Ev's, (excuse the electrical pun) rather a comment on how the manufacturers constantly "strive to increase monetisation and expand revenue streams" and I have put that in inverted commas, as I heard those exact words uttered by someone in the auto industry whose job title is "Director of Monetisation"

I dont agree with it, but its the way of the world, its a bit like paying a booking fee for buying electronically delivered tickets, the cost in no way represents the actions you are paying for.

 

[Billy69_uk]

One would expect so

It also likely to become a legal requirement as in right to repair.

I would hope so, but I have already heard rebuttals based around hse, and the ability (or inability) of the third party aftermarket to safely maintain and repair high voltage systems to an extent that completely protects the customer/driver etc and can guarantee the safety and integrity of the system in case of an accident..

The argument has been that a mechanic can work on a 12 or 24vdc system we see today, but an authorised HV person needs to be only allowed to work on HV battery and hybrid systems.

There are currently technicians (again, sorry for the EV pun) that are not allowed to start work on a hybrid or EV, until an authorised person has LOTO'd the vehicle and made it safe.

Its horse shiat, but the money needs to be generated to pay for these huge car makers to thrive.

 

[A]

of course it is possible, but motor manufacturers like brand loyalty. Springing a new set of yearly costs on your fanbase is going to destroy consumer loyalty. So I don't see it happening. You can of course carry on driving a vehicle with no further updates if you wish

I get the customer loyalty point, but, and maybe I'm getting more cynical with age, I find very unlikely the automotive industry will ignore a potentially lucrative revenue stream. I worked with many automotive manufacturers for 7 years in my previous role managing several large clients and they are not inherently an altruistic bunch. It was when I worked in that role JLR started charging for full owner handbooks; all you get with the vehicles now is a 48 page quick start guide. Owner literature has always been free with new cars, but for JLR at least, no longer. Even if you spend 120k plus on a top of the range, you have to buy the handbooks and it's not a listed optional extra. The dealer might buy it for you, but they don't get them free

 

[Andy_W]

For me, It's not really about ICE versus EV - I'm just looking for a balance of the best quality, value and reliability. EVs simply can't compete at the moment, this is due to their list price and likely future problems with batteries and technology, etc - if the vehicle is kept long term. These batteries are constantly degrading and this will see a gradual reduction in range and the fact they will have to be replaced or the vehicle scrapped if it's an uneconomical repair. Currently a new battery costs anywhere between £4000 and £20,000. I'm afraid that's not for me.

People do speak of warranties, but I don't trust them due to knowing a bit about how they work. If battery performance isn't as advertised, a replacement won't be offered. There might be a 'software fix' that doesn't really solve the problem. The battery will have to pretty much fail to get anywhere with the warranty. Let's not forget, a battery is expected to degrade - that's what batteries do. I'll take proven reliability over extended warranties any day of the week.

With regards to software updates, they are already out there, but expect a lot more in the future. It will be a major profit making exercise for the manufacture. We know that anything with hardware and technology needs updates. Yes, some of the updates might be automatic and free in the early life of the vehicle. But that won't last, whether it's a new feature or some sort of improvement or fix - there'll be a significant price to pay.

www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-tesla-model-s/



This is exactly my point, hence why I wouldn't buy one and swap my current vehicle. Prices are high and are going up dramatically.

Strange how you have such and agenda, made up completely on false assumptions, and zero experience actually owning one?

EV's have already won, but only people with experience of both (or people half decent at maths) will realise that already, but over time more will realise. A lot of it is fear, or fear of change/ technology, but technology always wins, and always makes things better. The longer you try and drag this argument out, the sillier you're making yourself look.

My EV (TCO/ total cost of ownership) is working out cheaper than an ICE car half the ticket price, but is cleary a much more capible car, and far better kitted out. A comparable ICE car is about 10% less on the ticket, but you get more than that back as the EV will hold that extra 10% cost, as it will depreciate less, costs far, far, far less to run, and has a much longer warranty on the key parts.

You don't know how a warranty works, otherwise you wouldn't say what you say. Or maybe you do know, but just try and make more crap up, to back up your non argument?

Manufacturers won't charge for software updates which help the health of the car, they are free, always have been free, and always will be free. It's not legal to force a charge/ expense on an already established system/ spec, kind of like how apple etc don't charge when they update the OS on your phone.
If there's a software update to add additional kit to the car, then they may charge for this, but it would be adding more kit to the car, and be entirely optional. I'd rather have that option, than not. Every decent car with a computer/ entertainment system/ sat nav etc which has been made in the last 10 years, has been getting regular software updates for free, whether that's ICE or EV. Either happens over the airwaves or when the car goes in for service.

Your example link is an extra cost to upgrade the spec of the car, or unlock features which were not part of the lower purchase price. If you wanted to upgrade a 2 ltr ICE to 3ltr engine, then it's going to cost more. Autopilot is an extra feature also, this is not being forced, and when it comes in, it will be a feature which some might chose, rather than having to buy a new car with that feature. See how much adding autopilot to an ICE car costs?

you used my example of somebody MAKING money from his car, as a reason not to get one? You would rather have bought a comparable ICE which lost 15% in the same timeframe? That's insane. He could have ordered the same car again for 10% less money than he sold his 1.5 year old car for, he's made a profit driving his car, and it's covered his running costs also.

Prices of all cars are high, and going up, that's what inflation does.

 

[Andy_W]

software updates are free currently. There is absolutely no indication as to if this will remain once the parts and service revenue reduces due to the fewer moving parts and reliability of EV's that we hear so much about.

If there is money to be made, the car makers and dealers will take a slice (or even the whole pie), as they have repeatedly lobbied against legislation that forces certain servicing information, data and communication protocols etc to be made publicly available to the 3rd party aftermarket.

The car makers themselves are currently arguing that seeing as the cars of today are so complex, the manufacturers themselves should be the only ones allowed to carry out maintenance and repairs. Think about where that goes in time.

There's zero indication that software updates will be charged for EV's, which maintain the original spec. Zero evidence that "upgrades" will be forced, and forced at additional cost.

If EV's are getting software updates that are charged, then so will ICE cars, every car now is heavily reliant on software, and in the future will be the case even more. This is not an argument to use against EV's, as it applies to all cars.

If dealers want to make more money, they will make more money across the range, there's no avoiding it.

There are laws pertaining to "right to repair", and some governments are pushing for more user rights, and I can't ever see an instance where only main dealers are allowed to touch cars, be that EV's or ICE.

 

[ThatFragranceGuy]

I dont agree with it, but its the way of the world, its a bit like paying a booking fee for buying electronically delivered tickets, the cost in no way represents the actions you are paying for.

The booking fee pays for the infrastructure that allowed you to buy and use the tickets. Queries are dealt with by customer service staff, encryption required to generate and validate single use tokens, invalidate cancelled tickets, the costs of that business operating, card payment handling fees, dealing with fraud / chargebacks and a profit for them as at the end of the day, ticket agents exist to make money. Tickets being delivered digitally saves on postage, printing and the like but all the other costs remain.

when I buy tickets I usually get offered the option of a physical ticket, and then pay postage charges, or the option to print at home or use a digital pass, which has no postage charges. Some agents may charge for it though as that technology, and it's support, obviously isn't free.

 

[Billy69_uk]

There's zero indication that software updates will be charged for EV's, which maintain the original spec. Zero evidence that "upgrades" will be forced, and forced at additional cost.

If EV's are getting software updates that are charged, then so will ICE cars, every car now is heavily reliant on software, and in the future will be the case even more. This is not an argument to use against EV's, as it applies to all cars.

If dealers want to make more money, they will make more money across the range, there's no avoiding it.

There are laws pertaining to "right to repair", and some governments are pushing for more user rights, and I can't ever see an instance where only main dealers are allowed to touch cars, be that EV's or ICE.

The right to repair only covers certain aspects, and is heavily biased to physical parts and hardware. There are some software parts that have to be publicly accessible, but there are many many more items that are only available with an OEM service tool.

History has shown the aftermarket is quick to catch on, an example being the vast array of 3rd party OBD readers that are currently available, but battery management SW will be an entirely different kettle of fish. Try to have a search to see what 3rd party SW is available to modify or repair a Tesla today, there is none.

 

[Same_as_before]

I have intentionally not given an opinion, I simply do not like mine. My son lives near Birmingham. We recently drove there, by the time we passed Leeds the battery was well down. When we got there my wife was panicking about getting back and spent an hour finding a charging bay. So instead on enjoying the day, she rattled on about how much time we lost with our son. If I had a petrol car it would have been no issue.

 

[Andy_W]

I have intentionally not given an opinion, I simply do not like mine. My son lives near Birmingham. We recently drove there, by the time we passed Leeds the battery was well down. When we got there my wife was panicking about getting back and spent an hour finding a charging bay. So instead on enjoying the day, she rattled on about how much time we lost with our son. If I had a petrol car it would have been no issue.

What car was it? What range?

Leeds is only 60 miles, there's 350kW chargers at Skelton Lakes if you got to Birmingham the M1 way, and there's 100kW chargers on the M1 near Chesterfield if you go the A1/M18 way. There's a also two lots of 100kW chargers on the A38.

You just need to plan your route better, and identify a fast charger around the expected range of your car, then it's easy.

Don't rely too much on the car to do what you want, as it's not a mind reader, use zap map or a abetterrouteplanner.

 

[Same_as_before]

What car was it? What range?

Leeds is only 60 miles, there's 350kW chargers at Skelton Lakes if you got to Birmingham the M1 way, and there's 100kW chargers on the M1 near Chesterfield if you go the A1/M18 way. There's a also two lots of 100kW chargers on the A38.

You just need to plan your route better, and identify a fast charger around the expected range of your car, then it's easy.

Don't rely too much on the car to do what you want, as it's not a mind reader, use zap map or a abetterrouteplanner.

Or go to a petrol station. It takes less then a minute.

To be fair if you can get from Middlesbrough to Leeds in 60miles EVs are efficient.

 

[SmallTown]

What car was it? What range?

Leeds is only 60 miles, there's 350kW chargers at Skelton Lakes if you got to Birmingham the M1 way, and there's 100kW chargers on the M1 near Chesterfield if you go the A1/M18 way. There's a also two lots of 100kW chargers on the A38.

You just need to plan your route better, and identify a fast charger around the expected range of your car, then it's easy.

Don't rely too much on the car to do what you want, as it's not a mind reader, use zap map or a abetterrouteplanner.

Interesting how Same as before has one bad experience and says he hates all EV.

It's this regressive attitude that needs to be addressed. Look at his last post, it's like he doesn't even understand the drivers for switching to EV. The fact that he can't even remember what car he had makes his posts suspicious too

 

[Andy_W]

Or go to a petrol station. It takes less then a minute.

To be fair if you can get from Middlesbrough to Leeds in 60miles EVs are efficient.

It doesn't take a minute, it wouldn't take a minute if you lived inside of one. I've not been to a petrol station/ charging station in months mind, so maybe things have changed, last I remember it was a 15-20 minute round trip to fill up once every 1-2 weeks, and I live 500m from a garage.

Last trip to Bristol I had to stop for 40 minutes, which was when I was going to go in the services anyway. I can't even actually remember the last time I was sat in my car waiting for it to charge, was probably over a year ago.

I've easily spent far less "wasted" time with the EV, than any ICE car I've ever had, that's for certain.

EV's work better with organised/ techy people mind, especially when it comes to longer routes. But I see value in knowing where the faster chargers are on longer routes, rather than relying on my car to "optimise" it, took me about a week to figure this out.

I think my last journey to Leeds are was to Roundhay park, and that was about 59 miles from Acklam, but centre to centre it's probably 65.

 

[SmallTown]

It doesn't take a minute, it wouldn't take a minute if you lived inside of one. I've not been to a petrol station/ charging station in months mind, so maybe things have changed, last I remember it was a 15-20 minute round trip to fill up once every 1-2 weeks, and I live 500m from a garage.

Last trip to Bristol I had to stop for 40 minutes, which was when I was going to go in the services anyway. I can't even actually remember the last time I was sat in my car waiting for it to charge, was probably over a year ago.

I've easily spent far less "wasted" time with the EV, than any ICE car I've ever had, that's for certain.

EV's work better with organised/ techy people mind, especially when it comes to longer routes. But I see value in knowing where the faster chargers are on longer routes, rather than relying on my car to "optimise" it, took me about a week to figure this out.

It's one of the odd things the anti EV army come up with: even that debunked report that Genty insists on sharing: Seem to have this ridiculous belief that people just sit and stare at a cable for 40 minutes and can't physically move. Last time I refuelled my car and I wasn't at home, I pulled up round the corner from my yoga studio and managed to refuel AND do a whole vinyasa flow at the same time. Makes a change from the usual of being asleep whilst I refuel I guess.

 

[A]

Interesting how Same as before has one bad experience and says he hates all EV.

It's this regressive attitude that needs to be addressed. Look at his last post, it's like he doesn't even understand the drivers for switching to EV. The fact that he can't even remember what car he had makes his posts suspicious too

How on earth can you extrapolate him not saying which car he had in a post to him not being able to remember???

I wonder who might be best suited to addressing this regressive attitude? Should it be a calm, reasonable, pragmatic mediator who can put forward both sides of an argument that helps us understand the benefits of one over the other, or should it be someone who appears aggressively belittling, desperate to validate their own decision for fear of backing the wrong horse, completely one-sided and condescending in their manner?

 

[A]

It's one of the odd things the anti EV army come up with: even that debunked report that Genty insists on sharing: Seem to have this ridiculous belief that people just sit and stare at a cable for 40 minutes and can't physically move. Last time I refuelled my car and I wasn't at home, I pulled up round the corner from my yoga studio and managed to refuel AND do a whole vinyasa flow at the same time. Makes a change from the usual of being asleep whilst I refuel I guess.

 

[Same_as_before]

Not wanting to be a pedant but it is over 70 miles from TS1 to Leeds city centre, however I did say once we had passed Leeds. Maybe the newest EVs have wings?

I understated less than a minute, but I did not have to look for a petrol station I drove passed many.

We would not have to sit and wait for the battery to warm up, or as you say plan our day.

I will say it again, I have nothing against EVs, but they are not for me. Saying that I will keep mine until late summer and then think about changing. The second hand marked is crazy now so best to wait.

 

[Andy_W]

Not wanting to be a pedant but it is over 70 miles from TS1 to Leeds city centre, however I did say once we had passed Leeds. Maybe the newest EVs have wings?

I understated less than a minute, but I did not have to look for a petrol station I drove passed many.

We would not have to sit and wait for the battery to warm up, or as you say plan our day.

I will say it again, I have nothing against EVs, but they are not for me. Saying that I will keep mine until late summer and then think about changing. The second hand marked is crazy now so best to wait.

You are being a bit of a pedant, but you're welcome to make the journey as long as you want, go via Newcastle if you want

Leeds is less than 60 miles for me (in My EV), and I live well and truly in Middlesbrough, and have little intention of going via TS1, but knock yourself out. You didn't give a great amount of detail, so I went with my usual trip to Leeds. I'm usually on about 70% charge when I get there.

I drive past hundreds of them, don't need 99% of them

"Plan your day?" A bit dramatic, do you not think? I rarely plan anything now anyway, I spent 20 minutes a year ago figuring out where the fastest chargers were on the A1, M1, M5. It's not hard, not for me anyway. If I need to go somewhere "new" then looking on an app for about 30 seconds is all it takes, can even do that on route thanks to Siri or the missus. This doesn't impact "my day".

Not sure what you mean by waiting for battery to warm up? I've not once sat and waited for that, but not sure what you mean? I just plug in an go get some food or whatever, there's usually enough by the time I get back.

 

[Same_as_before]

You are being a bit of a pedant, but you're welcome to make the journey as long as you want, go via Newcastle if you want

Leeds is less than 60 miles for me (in My EV), and I live well and truly in Middlesbrough, and have little intention of going via TS1, but knock yourself out. You didn't give a great amount of detail, so I went with my usual trip to Leeds. I'm usually on about 70% charge when I get there.

I drive past hundreds of them, don't need 99% of them

"Plan your day?" A bit dramatic, do you not think? I rarely plan anything now anyway, I spent 20 minutes a year ago figuring out where the fastest chargers were on the A1, M1, M5. It's not hard, not for me anyway. If I need to go somewhere "new" then looking on an app for about 30 seconds is all it takes, can even do that on route thanks to Siri or the missus. This doesn't impact "my day".

Not sure what you mean by waiting for battery to warm up? I've not once sat and waited for that, but not sure what you mean? I just plug in an go get some food or whatever, there's usually enough by the time I get back.

You just need to plan your route better, and identify a fast charger around the expected range of your car, then it's easy.

You seem to be fully backed by ET on every word, that's good enough for me.

 

[Billy69_uk]

I honestly dont understand why people on either side of the EV fence care so much what other people do or think.

Personally, I am firmly on the fence, I can see benefits, but I can see negatives of EV's. I guess people make their own choices when the positives outweigh the negatives, but that will be at completely different times for different people.

 

[Andy_W]

ET?

Not sure what that's supposed to mean, but I'm backed (by almost all the EV drivers on this thread) because what I'm saying is right, which I (and all the others) have proven real world for over a year and a half (personally). I don't personally know any EV owner (out of about 10) who have had any sort of problems, certainly not relative to the gains.

Seems like you're struggling with it, but like I said though, you need to have a modern/ technical mindset to make it most effective or it will just take far longer to adapt. You unfortunately don't seem to have or want that though, otherwise you would have already figured it out for yourself.

Strange how you won't mention what EV you have mind