Same_as_before
Well-known member
ET Freudian error ST
Yes Modern is not my forte, Miners Lamp in hand.
Yes Modern is not my forte, Miners Lamp in hand.
Genuine question for EV owners
- Thread starter Billy69_uk
- Start date
Andy_W
Well-known member
It's the disinformation I have a problem with, it seems like a lot of the issues mentioned are either false, conjecture or basically down to a lack of knowledge.
I'll happily point out what is false or conjecture, and more than happy to help educate. Done it many times with extremely in depth price comparisons, or real world/ reality usage. I often don't get any fight back on any of those posts, as it's just fact, so anyone arguing just tries to deflect (with a lack of detail).
I've pointed out hundreds of times specifically what EV's are bad at, but they are so niche, that for the vast majority with a drive, and "normal" use, they don't even play a part.
Like I keep saying, I've had 20 cars, and run a vehicle fleet for my business (mostly ICE). 2/3 of my personal cars are ICE, but it's plain to see for the vast majority that the majority of fears for EV's are based on incorrect assumptions.
If you do ~10-14k miles a year, in car, and are in the market for a newer car, and can charge at home, EV's are better, cheaper TCO, greener that's just the basics of it. For a 500 mile round trip (which isn't common for most) an EV will literally cost minutes extra, but you more than gain that time back in other areas (not going to the pump is one example), or would have spent that time sat eating or s***ing, or watching the dog eating or s***ing anyway.
EV's don't beat the market for 2-3 year old cars yet, not in every class, as they've largely not filtered through yet, but they will in 2-3 years. But the cost savings for an EV can make a new car cheaper TCO than say a 3-5 year old ICE.
EV's don't yet beat most big Vans or pickups, but they will soon. HGV's in EV format are a long long way away, but they will come, or the alternative will not be ICE, that's for sure.
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Andy_W
Well-known member
Still no mention of what EV you "have"?
Good luck with your lamp, sounds well suited to you
Billy69_uk
Well-known member
I cant argue with any of that (and I have tried)
I do think there is an image issue with EV's, or at least a perception of an issue. Some people I know are dead against EV's do so because they, rightly or wrongly, feel like they are being told what to do and what not to do and dont like the preachy element. I dont necessarily mean the EV's themselves, because some of the coolest new cars on the market are EV's. The Kia Ev6 is one of the most interesting new cars I have seen in a long time. Slap a BMW or Merc badge on it and every man and his dog would want one.
Myself, I am not ready to take the plunge with my own money, but I am not 100% clear in my own mind why.
SmallTown
Well-known member
I agree with Andy_w on this one. It's not that I'm anti ICE I love the sound of a V8, it's the issue that people like Gent spread misinformation about EV. I don't mind reasonable arguments, such as those you put forwards. And especially with your industry experience. The problem comes when you debunk a lie and someone like Gent either ignores it or waits for a while and then repeats the lie. A few of the assumptions he makes can be shot down by people with real world experience of EV ownership. It's telling that he point blank refuses to acknowledge that experience.I cant argue with any of that (and I have tried)
I do think there is an image issue with EV's, or at least a perception of an issue. Some people I know are dead against EV's do so because they, rightly or wrongly, feel like they are being told what to do and what not to do and dont like the preachy element. I dont necessarily mean the EV's themselves, because some of the coolest new cars on the market are EV's. The Kia Ev6 is one of the most interesting new cars I have seen in a long time. Slap a BMW or Merc badge on it and every man and his dog would want one.
Myself, I am not ready to take the plunge with my own money, but I am not 100% clear in my own mind why.
JustTheGent
Well-known member
It's hard to predict what the cost of long term ownership is, say 10-15 years. But in any event, some studies are showing that EVs are actually more expensive to run than petrol models that don't even have high mpg figures. The reason for this is that you've got to pay for the charging infrastructure and it will have to be maintained. Then you also have higher insurance costs. At the end of the warranty period you've also got a potential huge bill of anywhere between £4000 and £20000 to replace the battery.
With regards to battery degradation, it's okay if you're not using near to most of the capable range. But warranties do not cover up to 30% loss in performance. Surely this is going to be a massive red herring for the used market, especially when warranties have expired. Unless a battery completly fails, manufacturers will probably do a quick fix that won't last.
SmallTown
Well-known member
More supposition and guesswork. It’s genuinely getting sad now
Same_as_before
Well-known member
I haven't mentioned the TV we use or what type of phone this is, are you interested?Still no mention of what EV you "have"?
Good luck with your lamp, sounds well suited to you
SmallTown
Well-known member
If you’re continuing a 14 page long post about why you won’t choose a certain type of technology then yes, that information would be pertinent. The assumption would be that because you refuse to say you’re lying about your “story”
Andy_W
Well-known member
No, the thread's about EV's, rather stick to the topic, that's what forums are about. You've mentioned a few times about the one "you own", just curious to see what that was?
Maybe don't tell the people on the TV threads what your TV is, or maybe don't say what your phone is on any iphone/ android debates? M
Not sure what you're scared of?
Andy_W
Well-known member
HahaI cant argue with any of that (and I have tried)
I do think there is an image issue with EV's, or at least a perception of an issue. Some people I know are dead against EV's do so because they, rightly or wrongly, feel like they are being told what to do and what not to do and dont like the preachy element. I dont necessarily mean the EV's themselves, because some of the coolest new cars on the market are EV's. The Kia Ev6 is one of the most interesting new cars I have seen in a long time. Slap a BMW or Merc badge on it and every man and his dog would want one.
Myself, I am not ready to take the plunge with my own money, but I am not 100% clear in my own mind why.
Yeah, it could be an image thing, and plenty just think everything's a con, but a LOADS of people just don't like change, and certainly won't be an early adopter, no matter what it is. Some may adopt without knowing how best to make it work, and just think of it like an ICE, but it's not quite like that for some journeys. A slight adaptation needs to be made but it's not bad, it's just a change, where they lose out in one well know aspect they just don't see the gain in something they no longer need to do.
A big problem though is the maths of it, people just don't get it, can can't work it out for themselves. I know plenty of EV drivers that can't even work it out, but I've helped plenty of them putting it all on paper (Excel). I've done plenty of examples showing like for like comparisons and it's a clear winner on cost. Problem is if most can't figure that out, or understand it when explained, then all they have to believe is range anxiety, which is only really a thing until you've actually owned one for a few weeks then it becomes a none event. I get more range anxiety in my ICE kit car as the fuel gauge doesn't work great
Andy_W
Well-known member
It's not that hard, no harder than long term ICE ownership, if you're half decent at maths and understand real world (or your own) use. But not many keep a car for 10-15 years, not people buying cars 0-2 year old anyway, which is when EV's have taken off.
One thing is a practical certainty though, a an ICE won't be worth much in 2032-2037 (comparatively), when they're going to be minority of new car sales in three years, and in 10 years at most, there won't be any new ICE car sales in the UK. Some classics may get kept for nostalgia, but I expect most others will end up on the scrap heap or going abroad for peanuts. There's never much value in old tech, once the world knows that tech is going to be obsolete.
Wrong about expense, yet again, >90% of most peoples miles are from home charging, so public charging is largely irrelevant. For me I've only needed public charging maybe 5% of miles at most. My mates missus has never used a public charger, in a year since ownership and she had done 1k miles a month.
Anyway, it's the Electric companies which maintain the grid, once the connection is made, so you're paying for that whether you like it or not, no matter what car you own. Same as EV owners pay for maintenance on adopted highways leading to services, where there is ICE only filling up (for now).
As for the chargers, they're simpler, cheaper and much safer to maintain/ keep topped up than fuel tanks, with HGV deliveries etc. They may be slower to repair them mind, but that will change in line with how many have EV's/ ICE. In 5-10 years there will be less fuel filling options than Electric options.
Insurance isn't higher, even though I expected it to be, in line with the value. My lass can insure my EV for 20% less than her 2 ltr diesel car, which is worth half as much. My insurance is the same as an ICE worth 75% the price. Insurance is peanuts in the TCO calculation anyway, probably <10% total. For most the nil VED would be more of a saving than any insurance difference, not that I've ever seen one.
Try buying a new BMW ICE engine, and getting that fitted, when they're no longer making ICE vehicles and stopped 5 years ago (which will largely be the case in 10-15 years time). 20k to replace a battery on a new car is laughable, the average expected cost is 5-7k, and that's 10-20 years down the line, by then a car would be nearing it's end of life anyway, but if it was needed, the car would then be good for another 10-20 years, and the motor would probably be good for double an ICE engine, but even if not would save a fortune in not having to maintain or service it.
in 2010 a battery was $1k per kw/h, in 2015 it was $230 per kw/h, by 2030 it will be a lot less than $100, especially if new battery tech comes out.
Most battery manufacturers expect 10% loss in 10 years/ 100k miles, but obviously set the warranty lower to avoid a mass of claims. But some warranties do cover 90% battery, in 10 years/ 100k miles. But even if mine lost 20% in 8 years, it would make practically zero difference, as a massive range is not necessary with good charging infrastructure, and by then infrastructure would be far better than it is now. I'd still have 160 range in winter, and 200 in summer. But anyway, in 8 years my car will be someone else's run around/ second EV, and their primary one will probably have 300-400 mile range, and a much smaller battery. If the fix is not a fix/ like for like with a warranty claim, then you've every right to have it replaced or rectified again.
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Just saying that range anxiety doesn't exist, or anxiety about whether a public charger will be working and available doesn't exist is clearly nonsense.
EV users need to be concerned about both of them. Their fears may be exaggerated, but there is, and always will be an issue until charging points are as ubiquitous and reliable as petrol stations.
Just this week the chargers failed at a hotel near me in Edinburgh, meaning those people affected had to seek out other chargers, walking back and forwards, changing arrangements, losing time.
That is undeniably going to create anxiety.
EV users need to be concerned about both of them. Their fears may be exaggerated, but there is, and always will be an issue until charging points are as ubiquitous and reliable as petrol stations.
Just this week the chargers failed at a hotel near me in Edinburgh, meaning those people affected had to seek out other chargers, walking back and forwards, changing arrangements, losing time.
That is undeniably going to create anxiety.
SmallTown
Well-known member
It’s not nonsense at all. It’s an opinion based on owning an EV for over a year and also knowing the phrase was invented by GM when their EV failed.
BoroMart
Well-known member
I think it's over stated, rather than non-existent.
I don't give it a second thought really. Of course an EV point can have an issue. But as we have seen a petrol station can run out as well.
SmallTown
Well-known member
People are confusing range anxiety with charger anxiety. None working chargers are a massive issue that needs addressing. Being anxious about getting to where you plan to be, I.e. range anxiety, melts away pretty quickly when you release how accurate an EV battery gauge is. You know, pretty much to the mile, when you'll need to refuel so I don't see how you can be anxious when you know the facts.
I've stated this before. My other halves diesel range computer stops when there is under 60 miles left. And it has a digital fuel gauge so is pretty inaccurate. I can see how people get range anxiety when they don't know when they run out of fuel. I can't see how it's possible in a car that calculates range so effectively. People genuinely only have range anxiety because they have been told by GM that they have to have it
I've stated this before. My other halves diesel range computer stops when there is under 60 miles left. And it has a digital fuel gauge so is pretty inaccurate. I can see how people get range anxiety when they don't know when they run out of fuel. I can't see how it's possible in a car that calculates range so effectively. People genuinely only have range anxiety because they have been told by GM that they have to have it
Colgates_shaving_foam
Well-known member
Isn't range anxiety and charger anxiety two sides of the same coin?
People are anxious that they know they need to recharge at a certain point but they do not know if the charger will be available?
Are there any apps that are 100% updated real-time to show whether a charger at a given location is working? If so then that would remove the anxiety.
Emmersons_BrazillianDong
Well-known member
They are not comparable Mart. I've been an EV owner for about 19 months now and I've had loads of bother when utilising charging infrastructure away from home.
You're absolutely right that range/charging anxiety (which I'd say are very different with the former very quickly quickly overcome and the latter less controllable) are overstated.
The problems with public charging are so numerous that over the past 6 months, I've decided I'll only use InstaVolt or Osprey chargers because they are well maintained and reliable. That doesn't happen at petrol stations.
My EV is a great car, have had very little to no problems over the time of ownership and as Andy and others mentioned, 95% of the time, if you're charging from home or work then you're just not going to encounter any problems.
If you're doing regular long journeys then things need to be better planned, which is totally fine and not difficult but you're relying on things being free /working when you arrive which isn't always the case.
Had a nightmare in Newquay last summer with a number of chargers being bust and other options having large queues (similar issues on the last few trips we had in the UK through lockdown) . Everyday this is getting better as the investment goes in but I'd like to see bookable charging slots made available for locations where there's not enough chargers available.
My trips from the South East to Boro are now largely fixed because I've worked out through research and trial and error which are the best spots but on almost every other leisure trip there is some level of anxiety about infrastructure, ensuring I have what I need and a desire to spend my free time enjoying it rather than ensuring we have the car sorted for trips out for the day/getting home.
My car has a real world range of 150 miles, which I know is lower down the spectrum compared to today's new cars, which is why I agree EV are the future and I think it will be soon.
I said this the other day. I don't want to go back to an ICE car at all. But my decision will be based on pure financials. My current EV was an absolute steal on every level. Things have changed in the market as they have for all cars but after next year I'll be looking at the numbers.
I'll try to look at a three year future window and compare the options as best I can. If its close then I'll still opt for an EV, which has been the nicest car I've had and most comfortable too. But if not then I'll be going with the best ICE deal I can.
Different strokes for different folks of course but I think that with the costs currently being placed on families, this will be a similar situation for most.
SmallTown
Well-known member
Not really. One is a infrastructure problem in desperate need of fixing. The other is an entirely fake construct designed to make all EV look bad. That's the issue. People use the phrase range anxiety and other incorrectly assume range of EV is an issue. It isn't
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Andy_W
Well-known member
Keep in mind that most of my points apply to someone having a car with 180+ mile range, and their own home charging, as I'm only recommending EV's if they meet that criteria, or maybe have a much lower range just used as a "run around". My points are largely the convenience (always leaving the drive with 200 mile range, every single time, in a nice warm, defrosted car) far outweighs any inconvenience for the vast majority, but people forget about the inconveniences of ICE, as they're just used to it being "normal". By inconveniences I mean filling up every week or two, along with more things can go wrong etc, that time all adds up, more than most realise.
Based on the above, range anxiety doesn't exist for me in a practical sense, as I've driven 12k miles with zero of it, only really had one issue when I first got that car (didn't run out though) but that was more my error/ naivety than anything else, not knowing how range changes with conditions. It was the first week of ownership and I tried to drive to near the limit, on one of my first trips. Back then chargers mostly needed accounts, or I was using the crappy car account, but now they're all contactless and I have zero accounts, it's far better now.
Zapmap and my car tell me whether a charger is free or not before I get to it, and I've never had an instance of it being wrong, but I'm sure it may happen. I bet it happens more to those who don't have home charging, but I'm not advising ICE for those, unless they can charge very easily/ reliably/ in a situation which does not put them out.
ICE cars can have similar issues too mind, with the fuel stations being closed late at night or there might not be any fuel, but I suppose that system is more reliable for now. The thing is the amount of times I have to visit a fuel station with my ICE car is multiple times more than I do with my EV, probably 10x.
Not saying range anxiety doesn't happen, but it's not worth bringing up as a point as you can get range anxiety with an ICE car, and I've ran them to 0, or even -- a few times over the years, and ran out twice (all my own fault). Range anxiety in an EV will directly correlate with not planning as well or not knowing the route as well etc, that not the cars fault, it's the user.
Charging has changed a lot in a year and a half and anyone buying now, will find it's fine, and only going to get much, much, much better.
Don't get me wrong, on some long range trips you do have to think about things a bit more, and it's unwise to put all your eggs in one charger basket, but I've learnt not to arrive at a destination with <30 miles range, if I've not been there before and if chargers in that area are sparse. I maybe do 10 long trips a year, probably like most people, and like most people half of those will be familiar trips. The other 5 trips take about 5 minutes of research each, if you want to make best use of time and hit the fastest chargers for your car.
Might be different for me mind, as I'm just a good planner by nature, and try and be efficient as possible in everything I do, for some others it may take longer than a week to adapt.
It's daft people mentioning the "range anxiety", which plays so little part, but then not even accepting the massive TCO benefit, which should be a massive part of any reasoning.
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