Gareth Southgate's strong message after some supporters booed when England players take the knee [Gazette]

[Muttley]

it didn't need any "spin" to seem unpatriotic

The reason that Colin Kaepernick chose to "take the knee" was absolutely to show respect to the National Anthem, he initially thought he would sit through it but realised that this was not showing respect so knelt. Portraying it as "unpatriotic" was done deliberately to undermine the intended message.

 

[LaPennaBianca]

No counter-argument there then. You can't believe fully in one and the other I'm afraid.

Never heard of liberation theology?

King probably wasn't a Marxist, but as instated before, he had a critical opinion if capitalism and wasn't anti-communist in any sense.

A quote from his autobiography:

"I was deeply concerned from my early teen days about the gulf between superfluous wealth and abject poverty, and my reading of Marx made me ever more conscious of this gulf. Although modern American capitalism had greatly reduced the gap through social reforms, there was still need for a better distribution of wealth. Moreover, Marx had revealed the danger of the profit motive as the sole basis of an economic system: capitalism is always in danger of inspiring men to be more concerned about making a living than making a life. We are prone to judge success by the index of our salaries or the size of our automobiles, rather than by the quality of our service and relationship to humanity - thus capitalism can lead to a practical materialism that is as pernicious as the materialism taught by communism.”

“In short, I read Marx as I read all of the influential historical thinkers - from a dialectical point of view, combining a partial ‘yes’ and a partial ‘no.’ In so far as Marx posited a metaphysical materialism, an ethical relativism, and a strangulating totalitarianism, I responded with an unambiguous ‘no’; but in so far as he pointed to weaknesses of traditional capitalism, contributed to the growth of a definite self-consciousness in the masses, and challenged the social conscience of the Christian churches, I responded with a definite ‘yes.’ “

 

[Jedi boro]

The reason that Colin Kaepernick chose to "take the knee" was absolutely to show respect to the National Anthem, he initially thought he would sit through it but realised that this was not showing respect so knelt. Portraying it as "unpatriotic" was done deliberately to undermine the intended message.

Sadly it worked muttly and he’s still without a club btw.

 

[Muttley]

Sadly it worked muttly and he’s still without a club btw.

I'd hoped that without the baleful influence of 45 someone might have picked him up but I suspect he has been too long out of the game now. Very sad, not sure what he might have achieved as a QB but hopefully he might achieve more by his influence.

 

[Jonny Ingbar]

Sadly the booing

Never heard of liberation theology?

King probably wasn't a Marxist, but as instated before, he had a critical opinion if capitalism and wasn't anti-communist in any sense.

A quote from his autobiography:

"I was deeply concerned from my early teen days about the gulf between superfluous wealth and abject poverty, and my reading of Marx made me ever more conscious of this gulf. Although modern American capitalism had greatly reduced the gap through social reforms, there was still need for a better distribution of wealth. Moreover, Marx had revealed the danger of the profit motive as the sole basis of an economic system: capitalism is always in danger of inspiring men to be more concerned about making a living than making a life. We are prone to judge success by the index of our salaries or the size of our automobiles, rather than by the quality of our service and relationship to humanity - thus capitalism can lead to a practical materialism that is as pernicious as the materialism taught by communism.”

“In short, I read Marx as I read all of the influential historical thinkers - from a dialectical point of view, combining a partial ‘yes’ and a partial ‘no.’ In so far as Marx posited a metaphysical materialism, an ethical relativism, and a strangulating totalitarianism, I responded with an unambiguous ‘no’; but in so far as he pointed to weaknesses of traditional capitalism, contributed to the growth of a definite self-consciousness in the masses, and challenged the social conscience of the Christian churches, I responded with a definite ‘yes.’ “

I make a similar comment recently about Marxism, this sums up my feelings perfectly.

The thing with the booing, is that those who do it suggest is to counter the 'unfairness' of the BLM movement. "Don't white lives matter", they say, but then they're entirely missing the point. Maybe deliberately, I don't know, but until you've lived as a black person, suffered the prejudice all your life, then really you shouldn't pretend you understand, because you don't.

 

[Adi_Dem]

Look, if you're hiding behind it being political, unpatriotic, a Marxist gesture or whatever other nonsense you're choosing to come up with then you're either racist, ignorant or both. Simple.

 

[asredastheycome]

Went to Berlin once for England game. We were in a shopping centre with a load of bars down stairs. England fans at one end sang German Bombers song constantly for about two hours we were there. We had went to a bar at the other end which was ok but got sick of hearing them so we went elsewhere. About 150 as I say just singing same song when not knocking each other out which happened on two occasions while we were there.

We went to another bar where there was one German shouting and bawling at some English fans but he was told to shut up by other Germans and he slunk off in the end.

 

[Jedi boro]

until you've lived as a black person, suffered the prejudice all your life, then really you shouldn't pretend you understand, because you don't.

Getting off the subject here but I think statements like this are counterproductive as it leads to an impasse that we can’t ever cross and I think deepens feeling on both sides which helps no one.

 

[Muttley]

Went to Berlin once for England game. We were in a shopping centre with a load of bars down stairs. England fans at one end sang German Bombers song constantly for about two hours we were there. We had went to a bar at the other end which was ok but got sick of hearing them so we went elsewhere. About 150 as I say just singing same song when not knocking each other out which happened on two occasions while we were there.

We went to another bar where there was one German shouting and bawling at some English fans but he was told to shut up by other Germans and he slunk off in the end.

The "British/English Exceptionalism" that has put us where we are. Depressing.

 

[Joy_Division_Oven_Gloves]

Only that not why some people boo - they 'boo' because they dont believe in or understand equality (for many varied reasons- including their own political outlooks) and want things to stay the same, or get worse.

i remember the NF spewing their hatred outside football grounds in 1975 & 76 - their bastardised sons are now saying 'keep politics out of football'.

the councils decision to provide land for The Riverside was a political decision.

The Hearts team going to war en masse was a political decision.

The forming of Woolwich Arsenal, the nations military team, was a political decision.

Bertie Mee & Wilf Mannion going to Italy to oust Mussolini - an act of raw anti fascism - was a political decision.



politics has always been in football.

Great post

 

[Joy_Division_Oven_Gloves]

Sadly it worked muttly and he’s still without a club btw.

But his principles remain intact

 

[Philly-Red]

Anyone booing the gesture is/was a moronic, knuckle-dragging racist and deep down you know it. No matter how much you try to convince yourself/others that it’s because of mArXiSm or because politics shouldn’t be in football.

You know why the players are taking the knee and you definitely know it’s not because, despite earning over £200k a week, they inexplicably want a communist Marxist utopia. It’s because they don’t want scum bags subjecting them or any other people of colour to any form of abuse based on the colour of their skin.

It’s appalling that we even still have to have the argument. Last night was shameful and as much as I hope that the booing was primarily from those out of town, it’s pretty apparent from posts on this board and tweets that we have our own share of racists in Middlesbrough who are quite happy to denegrate a gesture that simply seeks to promote equality.

 

[JackG]

No such thing as a Christian Marxist.

You could make a reasonable case for Jesus Christ.

 

[Jonny Ingbar]

Getting off the subject here but I think statements like this are counterproductive as it leads to an impasse that we can’t ever cross and I think deepens feeling on both sides which helps no one.

I disagree, I think people can still empathise, without experiencing it directly.

 

[HiredGun123]

Look, if you're hiding behind it being political, unpatriotic, a Marxist gesture or whatever other nonsense you're choosing to come up with then you're either racist, ignorant or both. Simple.

What about who do genuinely oppose it for those reasons? Granted there may be some in the stadium hiding behind it just because they may be bigoted.

What about black people among my friends and family that opposite it? Are they racist? Or just ignorant? Or not allowed to form their own opinion?

Are we talking about booing specifically is racist? Or just not supporting a foundation that has some big question marks over it? also if you don’t agree with BLM as an organisation, why not express your belief? It should work both ways surely. Or are you only allowed to be loud if you follow one school of thought?

It always seems funny to me that the “anti-fascists” are the ones that seem to think everyone has to follow a narrative without questioning it, And expressing a different view makes them a bigot and should be silent. They don’t know the meaning of antifascist. I’m not applying that to you, I’m just talking in general.

We’ve had anti-racism movements in football before like kick racism out of football and whatnot... and it never received such negativity or boo’s.

So I do think there is a better way to show willingness to tackle or highlight injustice without taking a knee, a symbolic gesture with strong connections to an organisation with some major question marks.

The problem is it’s almost impossible to even have the right conversations because we live in a world where people are massively intolerant of each other, on all sides. Now in the eyes of the ignorant majority you’re either a “liberal lefty loony” or a “racist trump supporter” with nothing in-between. To be honest, I think your post somewhat highlights that.

 

[Middlesbrough123]

Players have an opinion but they need to realise that they do not represent the opinion of most fans .
Racism is now on my mind most days , it wasn’t before lockdown it’s certainly not healthy . People will end up losing their identity and won’t be appreciated for who they are .
If prejudice , racism etc are 100% eradicated we will probably be living in a inhuman ‘sanitised ‘ environment that we don’t want to be living in .
Any faults we have can be adapted over time by free will and not forced .
How many times have you heard anything racist at the riverside compared to ayresom park years ago ?

 

[Jedi boro]

I disagree, I think people can still empathise, without experiencing it directly.

No argument there but you didn’t say that before.

 

[SuperStu]

If prejudice , racism etc are 100% eradicated we will probably be living in a inhuman ‘sanitised ‘ environment that we don’t want to be living in .

I disagree. Is this how you feel about the UK now because there's no groups out there being prejudiced/discriminatory against certain eye colours?

If racism just stopped existing nothing of value would have been lost and nobody would miss it.

 

[BoroMart]

Imagine if people booed the national anthem for not being fond of the idea of a monarchy? Rather than just sitting there being quiet while the rest singalong...

I was going to post exactly the same, I mean obvs I'm just a tad anti-royal. Personally I believe the national anthem is an elitist political trope that indoctrinates people into believing that the monarchy deserve our undying patronage, unfettered power and unimaginable wealth at our expense.......but I've never booed it, I just let others get on with singing it.

 

[BoroMart]

No such thing as a Christian Marxist.

Although Marxism wasn't into religion, and I would entirely agree that it was and in some places is the opium of the masses, the character of Jesus is undoubtedly socialist leaning.