Fuel shortage

[Andy_W]

that's the tory way. Thatcher started with 500k unemployed and 10% inflation and left with 12% inflation and 3mill unemployed.

Aye, you're not wrong. Hailed as a hero by her lemmings though

I can almost understand it, for the extremely selfish and rich, but not for any household on sub 100k or anyone with a heart, seems a bit daft to me.

 

[Redwurzel]

I reckon if you asked 1000 people who has a better education system, better average education per capita and better job prospects/ earnings, they would pick the UK over Poland, Romania etc, god knows for how long mind. - Andy

Andy - if you mean Eastern Europe I would I would not pick the UK and those 1000 people you quote would likely be wrong.

My Eastern European relatives are well educated. From what I gather speaking to them and observing them they were better educated in Slovakia than they would have been in the UK, certainly up to the age of 18. They were brought up in a poorer than average part of Czechoslovakia which became Eastern Slovakia after 1992 its the very Eastern edge of the EU. They lived in a a 6 storey 1960s state flat and their father was a train driver all his life, so fairly solid working class. One is a trained anaestist, another a senior nurse, another is a photographer and another a college lecturer although looks after her kids mainly at present. This would less likely happen in the UK to a working class child going to a state school during the 1980s and 90s. Their success was certainly part due to their good education system, with more of Slovakia's resources going on state education than happens in England. From evidence of this board, there is significant ignornace in the UK about Eastern Europe. I learnt quite a bit going there and talking with people brought up there. Lots of young people there came to the UK about 15 to 20 years ago because there were lots of jobs here particularly in the South of England and pay here was much higher than in their own country. The pay situation is no longer true and there are now more jobs in Slovakia than in say 2001. Don't you agree with this as a trend?

The influx of young people from Eastern Europe allowed employers in the UK to hold wages lower than they would have been, particularly in certain industries such as farming, hospitality. This is a basic law of supply and demand as supply increases it pushes prices in this case the price of labour lower. As a by product it has kept prices lower than they would have been and increased profits for those businesses involved.

 

[Redwurzel]

100% agree with this, the hollistic solution we have today is a neo-liberal form of capitalism. Where apparently the market forces, supply and demand will determine both the worth of goods/services and the worth of a human resource to deliver on those goods/services......if we are all agreeing that loads of industries see peoples work undervalued, from Teachers, to soldiers, to lorry drivers and we all agree that billionaires are getting richer while more people are falling to poverty. Then surely we are agreeing that the neo-liberal form of capitalism is a failed ideology.

Pure neo liberalism yes, but at the other end a completely state controlled economy does not work either. To me its about getting the balance right. The UK economy to me at present is failing quite a lot of working class people and even lower middle class people and more so in certain areas of the UK and we all know which.

 

[Laughing]

I need to look deeper? The RHA has looked into this deep enough I reckon. It's blindingly obvious Brexit would have a massive effect on any EU workers/ immigration, that's what it is expressly designed to do, and it is putting us on our knees. The EU is managing much better in practically every aspect (drivers, labour, gas, covid, economy growth, GDP forecasts etc), wonder what the big thing is that affected us and not them? I wonder.

Why would an EU worker come here, with all the extra hassle, we're an absolute nightmare, and half the "adults" don't want them here. If we hadn't left and hadn't been ramping up hate for the last 5 years then it is very likely EU drivers would have grown like they were, and not gone off a cliff.

We can't not lose UK drivers, it's too late for that, that problem was created at least a decade ago and it takes years to correct it, and then years to gain experience, and the tories have had zero interest in trying to correct it, and can't go back in time. All the experience is retiring or moving into other lines of work, the top of the tree is being cut off and it is extremely unlikely to be able to feed it from the bottom. The young have zero interest in being a trucker, that will not change, automation will cut it further. Even if the pay was double it wouldn't tempt many of the smarter young lads, as they would know it's a 20-year career at best.

I reckon if you asked 1000 people who has a better education system, better average education per capita and better job prospects/ earnings, they would pick the UK over Poland, Romania etc, god knows for how long mind.

We can pay more (and the same for every other low paid job), I'm not saying we can't but I'm saying it has to increase inflation, which is already higher than earnings growth and will outdo GDP growth. A booming economy can much easier accept wage increases, a struggling one that has just kicked its no 1 trade parter into touch, can't. The person that pays the price for this is everyone, the one who suffers most is the least well off, 10% gain in wages one year, but hyperinflation for years. Yes this may benefit the truckers short term (if they go back to the trade), but it means some other trade like construction etc would lose out, then that means construction workers will want more, it becomes a feedback loop. The tories won't implement additional taxes on the rich and give to those worse off, it's not exactly their mantra, and a prime example of this is the universal credit cuts. The wrong party is in charge for that, but they came hand in hand with brexit.

HGV's are a trade people are losing interest in, especially the younger lot, and especially those from the UK who have plenty of other options. EU drivers from the worse off places have far fewer options, so they're the only ones willing to do it, except we've shut the door and the more wealthy nations in the EU are a better prospect than us, again because of Brexit and the Tories.

I am done with the argument Andy. Brexit is not why we have driver shortages it's not even 20%of the curent shortfall even from an EU high.

Go ahead and blindly blame brexit despite their drivers blaming tax and conditions as primary reasons for heading back home. You don't address how the pandemic would influence the decision to reith home to families with at risk elderly members.

Of course the road haulage association blames brexit, its the easiest fix for them and apparently you.

It isn't an easy fix and never was.

 

[Laughing]

I reckon if you asked 1000 people who has a better education system, better average education per capita and better job prospects/ earnings, they would pick the UK over Poland, Romania etc, god knows for how long mind. - Andy

Andy - if you mean Eastern Europe I would I would not pick the UK and those 1000 people you quote would likely be wrong.

My Eastern European relatives are well educated. From what I gather speaking to them and observing them they were better educated in Slovakia than they would have been in the UK, certainly up to the age of 18. They were brought up in a poorer than average part of Czechoslovakia which became Eastern Slovakia after 1992 its the very Eastern edge of the EU. They lived in a a 6 storey 1960s state flat and their father was a train driver all his life, so fairly solid working class. One is a trained anaestist, another a senior nurse, another is a photographer and another a college lecturer although looks after her kids mainly at present. This would less likely happen in the UK to a working class child going to a state school during the 1980s and 90s. Their success was certainly part due to their good education system, with more of Slovakia's resources going on state education than happens in England. From evidence of this board, there is significant ignornace in the UK about Eastern Europe. I learnt quite a bit going there and talking with people brought up there. Lots of young people there came to the UK about 15 to 20 years ago because there were lots of jobs here particularly in the South of England and pay here was much higher than in their own country. The pay situation is no longer true and there are now more jobs in Slovakia than in say 2001. Don't you agree with this as a trend?

The influx of young people from Eastern Europe allowed employers in the UK to hold wages lower than they would have been, particularly in certain industries such as farming, hospitality. This is a basic law of supply and demand as supply increases it pushes prices in this case the price of labour lower. As a by product it has kept prices lower than they would have been and increased profits for those businesses involved.

I gave up on worse educated and less aspirational and I worked in Poland just before the pandemic.

 

[Redwurzel]

no it's the owners and more often investors of those companies that have got the benefits, the lie of capitalism is that consumers get better value through market forces. The reality is that shareholders get better returns through industry sector power and that creates an almost gravitational attraction of money to money. Whoever has the most money at the start of the game will inevitably take more from those that started with the least money. This drives up living costs, and creates massive social mobility barriers.

In general I agree with BM - In simple brutal terms capital returns are typicially 8% a year while wages go up 2% in the UK over the last 20 years.

Facebook (inc WhatsApp, Instagram) has generated fantastic returns (more like 50% a year), 2 billion people us it every day, they think its free, while it is selling information about them and their online activities and content, it is also accused of influencing their behaviour, and when it creates an environment of distress it does not seem to care (according to former staff). Its also has a near monopoly and some say addictive. If people were sensitive they would invest in it but not use it. At terms I am absolutely amazed at what it s allowed to do and if we protest we are called out of touch dinosaurs.

 

[Redwurzel]

Laughing - could you please clarify do you mean people are more poorly educated in Poland and less educated or about the same etc

 

[Laughing]

Laughing - could you please clarify do you mean people are more poorly educated in Poland and less educated or about the same etc

No I meant my comments back to Andy. I have no doubt that polish folk are at least as well educated as Brits. I was very impressed with how good their tech folks were.

Andy claimed they were less well educated and had lower aspirations than the British.

 

[Randy]

I reckon if you asked 1000 people who has a better education system, better average education per capita and better job prospects/ earnings, they would pick the UK over Poland, Romania etc, god knows for how long mind. - Andy

Andy - if you mean Eastern Europe I would I would not pick the UK and those 1000 people you quote would likely be wrong.

My Eastern European relatives are well educated. From what I gather speaking to them and observing them they were better educated in Slovakia than they would have been in the UK, certainly up to the age of 18. They were brought up in a poorer than average part of Czechoslovakia which became Eastern Slovakia after 1992 its the very Eastern edge of the EU. They lived in a a 6 storey 1960s state flat and their father was a train driver all his life, so fairly solid working class. One is a trained anaestist, another a senior nurse, another is a photographer and another a college lecturer although looks after her kids mainly at present. This would less likely happen in the UK to a working class child going to a state school during the 1980s and 90s. Their success was certainly part due to their good education system, with more of Slovakia's resources going on state education than happens in England. From evidence of this board, there is significant ignornace in the UK about Eastern Europe. I learnt quite a bit going there and talking with people brought up there. Lots of young people there came to the UK about 15 to 20 years ago because there were lots of jobs here particularly in the South of England and pay here was much higher than in their own country. The pay situation is no longer true and there are now more jobs in Slovakia than in say 2001. Don't you agree with this as a trend?

The influx of young people from Eastern Europe allowed employers in the UK to hold wages lower than they would have been, particularly in certain industries such as farming, hospitality. This is a basic law of supply and demand as supply increases it pushes prices in this case the price of labour lower. As a by product it has kept prices lower than they would have been and increased profits for those businesses involved.

Friends of mine have recently moved to Romania due to big uptake in IT industries over there. If you are Romanian and under the age of 25 and work in the I.T. sector you pay little to no tax too as an incentive to keep the brightest minds in the country.

 

[Laughing]

A fuel update from Toddington. We still have no fuel and have beem empty since Monday. The longest we have gone without fuel since the crisis began.

 

[Laughing]

Friends of mine have recently moved to Romania due to big uptake in IT industries over there. If you are Romanian and under the age of 25 and work in the I.T. sector you pay little to no tax too as an incentive to keep the brightest minds in the country.

Romania is known as the silicon Valley of Europe I think largely due to taxation laws there.

 

[Andy_W]

I reckon if you asked 1000 people who has a better education system, better average education per capita and better job prospects/ earnings, they would pick the UK over Poland, Romania etc, god knows for how long mind. - Andy

Andy - if you mean Eastern Europe I would I would not pick the UK and those 1000 people you quote would likely be wrong.

I'm not saying everyone, I'm saying average, comparing the two averages, even looking at top 20% and bottom 20%. Even if the education/ ability level was the same, the UK person, in the UK would likely end up with better opportunities and a better standard of life, so the EU workers from the "less well off" countries, would be willing to do the jobs the brits won't or work for less. I'm not saying that's good, or right, far from it, but it's probably a sad fact. Hence why we used to get the influx of workers from such countries, and others coming here for education etc, it didn't really happen on the same scale the other way around.

Now on the other foot, there are loads of other EU countries that would be better, and others that will be better in time, Brexit will level up countries that may have been behind the UK, or basically, we just stagnate or level down. I'm just saying before and maybe now, we're higher up the list and not near the bottom.

 

[Andy_W]

Friends of mine have recently moved to Romania due to big uptake in IT industries over there. If you are Romanian and under the age of 25 and work in the I.T. sector you pay little to no tax too as an incentive to keep the brightest minds in the country.

That's a great idea, fair play, and good luck to them

 

[Laughing]

I'm not saying everyone, I'm saying average, comparing the two averages, even looking at top 20% and bottom 20%. Even if the education/ ability level was the same, the UK person, in the UK would likely end up with better opportunities and a better standard of life, so the EU workers from the "less well off" countries, would be willing to do the jobs the brits won't or work for less. I'm not saying that's good, or right, far from it, but it's probably a sad fact. Hence why we used to get the influx of workers from such countries, and others coming here for education etc, it didn't really happen on the same scale the other way around.

Now on the other foot, there are loads of other EU countries that would be better, and others that will be better in time, Brexit will level up countries that may have been behind the UK, or basically, we just stagnate or level down. I'm just saying before and maybe now, we're higher up the list and not near the bottom.

I did look at the percentage of graduates in European countries and whilst that is a blunt metric it does suggest that in Eastern Europe they have on average, lower educated folks.

 

[Andy_W]

I did look at the percentage of graduates in European countries and whilst that is a blunt metric it does suggest that in Eastern Europe they have on average, lower educated folks.

It's probably relating to funding mind, I expect loads are too broke to be able to get a place or pay for it, but not sure how it works in those places. I'm in no way saying our lot are smarter, probably the opposite!

 

[Laughing]

It's probably relating to funding mind, I expect loads are too broke to be able to get a place or pay for it, but not sure how it works in those places. I'm in no way saying our lot are smarter, probably the opposite!

I did note that Eastern european countries have much higher rates of literacy than the uk though. Not sure what those numbers are telling me tbh. Probably that education to 16 is better but less people go to uni?

 

[BoroMart]

Pure neo liberalism yes, but at the other end a completely state controlled economy does not work either. To me its about getting the balance right.

Totally agree, The problem is waking people up to the fact that Neo-liberalism is just another extremist ideology. Because we have been a capitalist society, people don't recognise neo-liberalism as extreme but it is.

A balance of capitalism with guard rails to stop the excesses, good healthcare, decent social services and easy access to further education for all without the crippling debt. Key services such as rail and energy under public ownership. these are the policies that under a blind test gain a strong consensus of support and would lead to a more balanced society.

 

[Redwurzel]

To sum up Eastern Europeans under 50 are just as well educated as Brits (up to Level 3 - A level). The reason they came to the UK was better opportunities in the period 1997 - 2012 ish, not because they are poorly educated, But that has now changed as opportunities are similar or soon becoming similar in their own country.

Can we all please agree?

BoroMart

As a general thought - I would still call the UK a mixed economy i.e. not fully neo liberal. My reason for this is all citizens are offered free health care, free education upto age 18, quite a number of welfare benefits OK some are not as generous as they were, some services are in the public sector e.g. elements of transport, we have public regulators, we have minimum and living wage rates and a fair amount of employment law protection, some public housing. Before 1902 there was almost none of this in the UK unless charity is counted. The UK was run as a fully planned economy in WW2 with ration books etc and people were often sent to places to work. People accepted it as we needed to win the war. After the war they wanted most of the planning to end but wanted a balanced One Nation economy with more public ownership. This fell out of fashion in the 1970s and we got Thatcherism, but I think your average bod in the street can now see through that for its faults too.

All

Ref Fuel all stations are back to normal where I am - Welsh borders. In fact the Shell garage I went past today had fuel but only 1 customer as I expect everyone is near full after the panic a week ago.

Ref driver shortages - I was getting annoyed with people like politician and media going on about why the UK government had not planned for a driver shortage. Surely its more of the haulage industry job to plan i.e train drivers, set pay at a level to sustain driver numbers, set up facilities for drivers. They knew in 2019 we were leaving the EU and Single Market. (if BREXIT is the main reason for shortages). My gut feeling is they hoped drivers would work for low pay for ever and in some cases their customers say the retailers had screwed them right down on price, not realising the problems this would cause or the problems Covid would cause.

 

[Jonny Ingbar]

Was in Cambridge earlier in the week and the fuel issues are acute, with some filling stations having no fuel at all and the ones that do, limitingto 30 litres.

 

[Laughing]

Our local station is now on its 4th day with no fuel. Last week they had 4 deliveries, this week not one.