Fuel shortage

I am surprised some posters (especially left wing ones) are arguing in effect for continued low wages for drivers.

With sometimes have to live with slightly higher prices for the economy to work.

It can't be right for people stacking shelves to be paid around £9/hour and lorry drivers around £11/hour.
Depends, certainly long distance lorry drivers should be earning far more than that, as should hazmat drivers and other niche roles. Local lorry drivers probably more than that yes. But it's all relative to the cost of living. Should a lorry driver earn the average wage, above it or below it?
 
Whilst leaving the EU has had an impact we would be exactly where we are now without leaving the EU.

That is a fact. Had we lost no uk drivers without replacing them we would be a couple of hundred drivers short of our 2010 high.
It's on over simplification. We lost a lot of EU drivers, they have stopped us being in this position 10 years ago to be honest, and the loss of those EU drivers will make the possibility of getting out of this mire harder, because the current short fall of drivers is far bigger.

The timing of this problem occurring is not coincidental. the depth of the issue in this country compared to mainland europe is not coincidental.
 
You need to look deeper Andy, simple as that. Most articles include brexit as a factor which I don't disagree with. Let me make my point once more and argue with that. Whilst leaving the EU has had an impact we would be exactly where we are now without leaving the EU.

That is a fact. Had we lost no uk drivers without replacing them we would be a couple of hundred drivers short of our 2010 high.

Some of your other assertions are, quite frankly, ridiculous. Polish drivers are less well educated than UK drivers and less inspirational.

We can't just give the low paid wage increases because of inflation. Yes we can and yes it will lead to higher prices but we will be then paying what we should be paying. In real terms food prices have plummeted and a correction wouldn't be a bad thing.

However much more important is the awful working conditions which is the main driver for people leaving the industry not brexit. That's right not brexit. If isn't even the single biggest reason for EU drivers leaving the industry.
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We started our foodbank in 2008. Let's hope the 'correction' doesn't further overload the increase in clients we've seen over the last 18 months (from a number that has already doubled over the previous two years). All of this with donations from individuals falling and supermarket supplies almost drying up completely.
 
My brother was a lorry driver in the period 1992-1997 it was not well paid then and one reason he left was low pay. I gather the pay has deteriorated since then in real terms.
that can be said of most alternative jobs though, except the job of being a billionaire. Truck driver is a semi-skilled job, certainly the transferable skills are negligible, so what industry are these people transferring to and earning better? The whole working class sector is badly paid, and that's because the company owners and investors expect a % return that is unsustainable and exploitative.
 
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We started our foodbank in 2008. Let's hope the 'correction' doesn't further overload the increase in clients we've seen over the last 18 months (from a number that has already doubled over the previous two years). All of this with donations from individuals falling and supermarket supplies almost drying up completely.
Not sure what that graph is telling me bear?
 
It's on over simplification. We lost a lot of EU drivers, they have stopped us being in this position 10 years ago to be honest, and the loss of those EU drivers will make the possibility of getting out of this mire harder, because the current short fall of drivers is far bigger.

The timing of this problem occurring is not coincidental. the depth of the issue in this country compared to mainland europe is not coincidental.
No the timing is not coincidental your right. However pointing the finger at brexit and clamouring for cheap labour doesn't solve the problem anymore than taking a paracetamol for a brain tumour does.

Look at the context on the 2 threads hgv drivers and fuel shortages. It's brexit you thick racists voted for. That is the context.

I am happy to blame brexit where it is to blame. The two threads mentioned deliberately ignored other factors so some posters could name call others.

That says nothing about how we right the problem of low paid employees or more accurately just undervalued employees across the pay spectrum.
 
Food prices haven't plummeted. Certainly the expected 5% (and some reports say 10%) increase by the end of the year will be a disaster to millions of families, particularly those who have just had £1,000 year reduction in income.
Ah got it. Not sure where you got that data but I wouldn't argue that recently food prices have gone up but are still much lower than where they should be compared to even 10 years ago. Food has constantly gone up by less than inflation except the last 3 years.

We are paying much less for our food than our parents were. In some cases 100%l led than we should.

Largely due to corporate supermarkets deflating wages in the supply chain and robbing suppliers.
 
Ah got it. Not sure where you got that data but I wouldn't argue that recently food prices have gone up but are still much lower than where they should be compared to even 10 years ago. Food has constantly gone up by less than inflation except the last 3 years.

We are paying much less for our food than our parents were. In some cases 100%l led than we should.

Largely due to corporate supermarkets deflating wages in the supply chain and robbing suppliers.
It's HM Gov. You can't go back generations as the while economic structure was different. People didn't have cars as they could bus cheaply or walk to work. Rents were much lower.Food was affordable.

Certainly we haven't got the huge benefits of factory farming or buying power of supermarkets.

Raab was saying, in effect, today that people shouldn't worry about food on the table as the government were putting billions into skills that will get higher paid jobs. This is a crisis for some people. We run an afternoon school club to provide foods to kids as it will be the last meal of the day they'll get. Macro economics mean nothing to hungry people.
 
Look at the context on the 2 threads hgv drivers and fuel shortages. It's brexit you thick racists voted for. That is the context.

I am happy to blame brexit where it is to blame. The two threads mentioned deliberately ignored other factors so some posters could name call others.
I get that, it ***** peple off who voted for brexit, and I would never accuse every brexiteer of being racist. But take a step back away from all that and when we defuse the passions and tensions and start to look at this a bit more logically we see that brexit has had a serious negative impact on our economy and particularly in exacerbating the fragility of our supply chains and human resource in that sector.
 
It's HM Gov. You can't go back generations as the while economic structure was different. People didn't have cars as they could bus cheaply or walk to work. Rents were much lower.Food was affordable.

Certainly we haven't got the huge benefits of factory farming or buying power of supermarkets.

Raab was saying, in effect, today that people shouldn't worry about food on the table as the government were putting billions into skills that will get higher paid jobs. This is a crisis for some people. We run an afternoon school club to provide foods to kids as it will be the last meal of the day they'll get. Macro economics mean nothing to hungry people.
I don't dismiss food poverty bear. Its more prevalent now than when we were kids. That's largely other factors rather than food though. I would think, but don't know, the disappearance of social housing contributed massively to food poverty as mum and dad have to rent privately rather than live in a council house. Rents where I live are all over a grand a month for a house.

Deflating wages in the supply chain to keep food cheap isn't a sustainable solution as we are seeing.

We need an holistic solution. There is plenty of money slopping round our economy for us all to be financially comfortable irrespective of the cost of living index.
 
I get that, it ***** peple off who voted for brexit, and I would never accuse every brexiteer of being racist. But take a step back away from all that and when we defuse the passions and tensions and start to look at this a bit more logically we see that brexit has had a serious negative impact on our economy and particularly in exacerbating the fragility of our supply chains and human resource in that sector.
I don't disagree I loathe what brexit has done.
 
Certainly we haven't got the huge benefits of factory farming or buying power of supermarkets.
no it's the owners and more often investors of those companies that have got the benefits, the lie of capitalism is that consumers get better value through market forces. The reality is that shareholders get better returns through industry sector power and that creates an almost gravitational attraction of money to money. Whoever has the most money at the start of the game will inevitably take more from those that started with the least money. This drives up living costs, and creates massive social mobility barriers.
 
We need an holistic solution. There is plenty of money slopping round our economy for us all to be financially comfortable irrespective of the cost of living index.
100% agree with this, the hollistic solution we have today is a neo-liberal form of capitalism. Where apparently the market forces, supply and demand will determine both the worth of goods/services and the worth of a human resource to deliver on those goods/services......if we are all agreeing that loads of industries see peoples work undervalued, from Teachers, to soldiers, to lorry drivers and we all agree that billionaires are getting richer while more people are falling to poverty. Then surely we are agreeing that the neo-liberal form of capitalism is a failed ideology.
 
I don't dismiss food poverty bear. Its more prevalent now than when we were kids. That's largely other factors rather than food though. I would think, but don't know, the disappearance of social housing contributed massively to food poverty as mum and dad have to rent privately rather than live in a council house. Rents where I live are all over a grand a month for a house.

Deflating wages in the supply chain to keep food cheap isn't a sustainable solution as we are seeing.

We need an holistic solution. There is plenty of money slopping round our economy for us all to be financially comfortable irrespective of the cost of living index.
Can't disagree except the wages aren't deflated to keep food cheap. They're deflated to increase profits.
 
Can't disagree except the wages aren't deflated to keep food cheap. They're deflated to increase profits.
No they aren't your right but the effect of cheaper goods keeps us all quiet and gets a buy in from some people about wages v inflation.
 
100% agree with this, the hollistic solution we have today is a neo-liberal form of capitalism. Where apparently the market forces, supply and demand will determine both the worth of goods/services and the worth of a human resource to deliver on those goods/services......if we are all agreeing that loads of industries see peoples work undervalued, from Teachers, to soldiers, to lorry drivers and we all agree that billionaires are getting richer while more people are falling to poverty. Then surely we are agreeing that the neo-liberal form of capitalism is a failed ideology.

Spot on.
 
You need to look deeper Andy, simple as that. Most articles include brexit as a factor which I don't disagree with. Let me make my point once more and argue with that. Whilst leaving the EU has had an impact we would be exactly where we are now without leaving the EU.

That is a fact. Had we lost no uk drivers without replacing them we would be a couple of hundred drivers short of our 2010 high.

Some of your other assertions are, quite frankly, ridiculous. Polish drivers are less well educated than UK drivers and less inspirational.

We can't just give the low paid wage increases because of inflation. Yes we can and yes it will lead to higher prices but we will be then paying what we should be paying. In real terms food prices have plummeted and a correction wouldn't be a bad thing.

However much more important is the awful working conditions which is the main driver for people leaving the industry not brexit. That's right not brexit. If isn't even the single biggest reason for EU drivers leaving the industry.
I need to look deeper? The RHA has looked into this deep enough I reckon. It's blindingly obvious Brexit would have a massive effect on any EU workers/ immigration, that's what it is expressly designed to do, and it is putting us on our knees. The EU is managing much better in practically every aspect (drivers, labour, gas, covid, economy growth, GDP forecasts etc), wonder what the big thing is that affected us and not them? I wonder.

Why would an EU worker come here, with all the extra hassle, we're an absolute nightmare, and half the "adults" don't want them here. If we hadn't left and hadn't been ramping up hate for the last 5 years then it is very likely EU drivers would have grown like they were, and not gone off a cliff.

We can't not lose UK drivers, it's too late for that, that problem was created at least a decade ago and it takes years to correct it, and then years to gain experience, and the tories have had zero interest in trying to correct it, and can't go back in time. All the experience is retiring or moving into other lines of work, the top of the tree is being cut off and it is extremely unlikely to be able to feed it from the bottom. The young have zero interest in being a trucker, that will not change, automation will cut it further. Even if the pay was double it wouldn't tempt many of the smarter young lads, as they would know it's a 20-year career at best.

I reckon if you asked 1000 people who has a better education system, better average education per capita and better job prospects/ earnings, they would pick the UK over Poland, Romania etc, god knows for how long mind.

We can pay more (and the same for every other low paid job), I'm not saying we can't but I'm saying it has to increase inflation, which is already higher than earnings growth and will outdo GDP growth. A booming economy can much easier accept wage increases, a struggling one that has just kicked its no 1 trade parter into touch, can't. The person that pays the price for this is everyone, the one who suffers most is the least well off, 10% gain in wages one year, but hyperinflation for years. Yes this may benefit the truckers short term (if they go back to the trade), but it means some other trade like construction etc would lose out, then that means construction workers will want more, it becomes a feedback loop. The tories won't implement additional taxes on the rich and give to those worse off, it's not exactly their mantra, and a prime example of this is the universal credit cuts. The wrong party is in charge for that, but they came hand in hand with brexit.

HGV's are a trade people are losing interest in, especially the younger lot, and especially those from the UK who have plenty of other options. EU drivers from the worse off places have far fewer options, so they're the only ones willing to do it, except we've shut the door and the more wealthy nations in the EU are a better prospect than us, again because of Brexit and the Tories.
 
We need an holistic solution. There is plenty of money slopping round our economy for us all to be financially comfortable irrespective of the cost of living index.
This is one of the few things I agree with, but the problem is it won't happen with the Tories, and the current version of Brexit. The Brexit struggles have led to a worse recovery and less growth compared to the EU already, so we will struggle to compete to sell anything to the EU (as our price will be higher). When that happens you might end up with someone on 10% more pay, but with 10% fewer jobs.

The most basic, and quickest solution is get a further left or more centrist party in to try and solve the wealth/ pay disparity, and rejoin the single market and customs union, with freedom of movement, so we get growth and can afford the changes.
 
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