BoroMart
Well-known member
no it wasn't, he's average at best, you are talking about him like he is the finished article, like he's prime Rio Ferdinand, he's very far from that
England Squad Announced
- Thread starter Abel Tasman
- Start date
Otto42
Well-known member
Hasn’t played for Nigeria yetOnly if England can get him on loan from Nigeria.
Marvanelli
Well-known member
How? How has time proven Southgate right?
Southgate has won nothing.
He's bottled a final - a final in which we should have steam rolled the opposition based on the first half...the same team that haven't qualified for back to back World Cups.
He also choked against Croatia in the semi's when leading. That's twice we were leading, and lost the game in the last 2 big tournaments.
Grealish didn't play enough in the Euros. Especially when the likes of Mount was getting more minutes. He was given 21 minutes in the final. Absolutely laughable by Southgate.
This is the same Grealish who was subbed on against Denmark, changed the game when at 1-1 and then was subbed off again after we took the lead.
Also, Grealish is currently playing some of his best football since his move to City and is starting most games.
Would I have Grealish in the starting 11? No. Front 3 IMO should be Foden/Kane/Saka.
However, he should definitely be in that squad. Without any doubt.
Marvanelli
Well-known member
I agree with this.
It was basically a glorified friendly.
Maguire is absolutely dog turd.
It would have been a great chance to see him play in a hostile environment and would've given him some valuable experience.
It was ridiculous not to start Tomori.
BoroMart
Well-known member
He has arguably the best record of any england manager despite inheritting a squad that was a mess and having huge gaps in the quality of players he has available to him.
He didn't 'bottle a final'. There are 2 teams, teh other team were a wafer better. The idea we should have steam-rolled a team that hadn't lost in 32 games and almost 4 years shows the level of hysterical arrogance of some English national team fan.
He didn't 'choke' vs croatia either. The team over performed to reach the semi and fell short against some superb players.
Grealish went into that competition unfit, has he improved as a player in the last 15 months, No. You also have to look at the character and professionalism of a player, something Grealish has lacked in.
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BoroMart
Well-known member
It isn't because it impacts FIFA rankings and therefore our Pots for competitions and qualifications.
allied_assault
Well-known member
We lost a penalty shootout in the final - hardly bottled!
Marvanelli
Well-known member
BoroMart
Well-known member
based on what?
Marvanelli
Well-known member
Of course we should have steam rolled a team who have failed to qualify for back to back World Cups. That Italy team is far from the levels they're previously been at. It's truly a shocking team. North Macedonia proved that only a few months ago.
As for Southgate, again, he's won nothing. Not a thing. And he has arguably had the 2 easiest routes to finals I think I've ever seen.
That game against Italy was there for the taking. As soon as we scored the first goal, you could see how fragile they were and we had them by the throats, and Southgate failed to land the KO blow.
Instead he gambled on going to penalties....then proceeded to throw a couple of players on to take a penalty without them kicking a ball. Silly tactics and decision making by Gareth.
Marvanelli
Well-known member
Marvanelli
Well-known member
Hence why I said 'glorified'
Very little teams take it seriously and instead choose to use it as games to try/test other players out.
BoroMart
Well-known member
That's typical england fan arrogance. They were unbeaten in 32 games, you don't steamroller teams unbeaten that long. They hadn't failed to qualify for 2 world cups at that point.
Such a weak argument when we've failed to get this far before on a regular basis. No one whines that Bobby Robson had an easy route in 1990. Belgium were the hardest team he had to face, he squeaked past them and they were a very very limited team outside the top 20 in the world.
Southgate wasn't on the pitch, the players were, and Italy were a very decent team. They certainly weren't fragile. They were mentally strong and physically fit. They were far far more experienced than England were too.
He made a decision it didn't pay off. If he didn't make a decision he would be slated for that too.
England fans just like to complain and state how they should be champions all the time, the reality is we simply don't have the squads of other nations and never have
anth25
Well-known member
You're judging Southgate against the high standards and expectations he has created which is unfair IMHO.
As @BoroMart said you can't judge a manager solely on whether he has won anything. If during the shambles of England v Iceland someone had offered you the next manager (ignoring Allardyce!!) would take us to a WC Semi and a Euro Final you would have snapped his hands off. There are fine margins that have defined Southgates tenure and had they gone his way he would be lauded as one of the greatest international managers. Kane squares for Sterling in the Croatia game, we go in 2-0 up at half time and IMO we win that game easily. In the final against Italy, Rashfords penalty is so close to going in. He scores that, again I'm sure we go on to win. I know this is if's and but's but these fine margins are why you can't simply judge a manager on what they win.
Has he improved the team? Yes, undoubtedly
Has he given us some great times and memories? Again, yes undoubtedly
Is the squad in a good position going forwards? Yes
Also people seem to ignore the impact Southgate has had in developing the FA DNA and developing squads and players from the youth teams upwards. Someone made the comment above that Southgate inherited a good squad. Yes he did but that wasn't by accident or good luck. He was heavily involved in developing those players through his various roles at the FA
Jedi boro
Well-known member
No it’s not trust me if we were Germany or Italy or Spain he’d be under more scrutiny.
Expecting to Winning isn’t arrogant it’s what the others sides do.
Marvanelli
Well-known member
Unbeaten in 32 games. And how many of them were decent teams? Bottom line is. They have failed to qualify for back to back World Cups. That in itself is genuinely ridiculous and goes to show how poor this Italy team is (and has been for some time). They were very fortunate to beat Spain in the semi's. They weren't a very good team at all.
Bobby Robson isn't our manager, Southgate is, hence why we are debating/talking about him. Don't really care what previous managers have done, it's about what Southgate is doing. He's doing an ok job...not a brilliant job, but not a bad job neither...an ok job....so that doesn't mean he gets away scot free of criticism.
No, but he's responsible for the tactics that were deployed. And at halftime he changed them and we resorted to being very defensive...instead of smelling blood and seeing the weaknesses Italy possessed at the back.
His decision wasn't really a hard one. He just needed to be brave and yet he wasn't brave enough. A top manager would have saw that and continued to take the game to Italy and not let them come out 2nd half and dictate the game.
Oh and Mount should've been hooked far far earlier than he was. He was just ghosting throughout the whole of the game, yet another decision that was very obvious but Southgate was too late in making.
Marvanelli
Well-known member
As I have said above, I'm not doubting Southgate has done an OK job. He has, but he has also made some quite ridiculous decisions...decisions that can be seen to have cost us a trophy.
Agree, football can be about fine margins and those fine margins can be cruel (take Liverpool last season...literally 2 games away from a record Quadruple....fast forward a few months and they're struggling to get into the top 4).
BoroMart
Well-known member
absolutely this, he transformed the national team from a reactionary organisation that flip-flopped styles, to something sustainable, he professionalised the national team structure and philosophy.
BoroMart
Well-known member
I don't trust you, in fact I think you have a prejudice to anything southgate and want to address him with a prejudged viewpoint. Southgate has brought England on many levels it's undeniable to anyone open minded and not wanting to rewrite history, and instead look at the evidence with their analytical mindset instead of emotional one
BoroMart
Well-known member
enough of them. You don't go 32 games unbeaten if you are a poor side, you simply don't. They were well organised, very very difficult to break down, and had enoug quality to cause problems. They were also far more experienced than us
Of course he is doing a great job, he has us regularly in the final stages of competitions, despite not having the best squad in the world
You can't go gung-ho, teams that do that usually fail. Southgate critics seem to think that going for blood would have led to a guaranteed win, which is simply nonsense.
what a top manager like Capello, or Eriksson. Or maybe a top manager like Luiz Enrique who is a proven top manager but failed to beat Italy. The fact is we had a limited squad, some of the better players were very inexperienced and he got them to a final, that is an acheivement.