Can the UK rejoin the EU?

[GingerTravel]

He said 1000 - 1500 workers were moved to Europe

I'm sorry but this event never happened so they were never sacked or moved

you're defending an imaginary event

Or you can prove it did happen

Your move

I don't believe anyone was 'fired'. Staff were offered the opportunity to move to the EU, with a decent carrot (full relocation package, kids school fees paid etc) and in some cases an indication that their future career would be better served by a move. In France, Macron also established a favourable income tax regime to entice movement. While I have worked in the EU in the past, I'm not in a position to move (kids settled in secondary school in the UK) but I certainly have to travel to Europe for work far more, primarily because there are more colleagues there.

If I just comment on one case I have personal knowledge of, a colleague in his 30s actively chose to move to Paris - he was newly married and didn't have kids, and was being offered a promotion and a salary increase, they saw it as an adventure, so why wouldn't he? He's since been promoted again.

There are certainly jobs (not in my company as far as I'm aware) which have been moved directly to the EU from London, but it's a fairly small number. For example the European Banking Authority (an EU institution) was based in London and employed about 250 staff. Following Brexit, that entire organisation has moved to Paris, hence I'm sure they are counted in the 7,000. But the bigger picture is international banks don't generally force their people to move, instead they will have a natural turnover of staff and when someone leaves, can choose which location to recruit that person's replacement.

The article I posted above stated that JPMorgan had tripled it's staff in the EU in 2022, up to 4,100. It's a large company but on any view, that's a huge increase.

I have no special knowledge of that, but I'm inclined to accept because the source of the article is the company's annual report, that it is true. If so, that would accord entirely with what the reality is on the ground, that finance jobs in London (of which there are still plenty) have had at least a percentage shift to the EU.

Appreciate it doesn't fit the Government's narrative but there's a reason why the Euro is now worth more against than the pound than it did in 2016, why our economy is slightly less healthy on most measures than equivalent ones in the EU, and why £1,000 invested in a FTSE tracker in 2016 would be worth substantially less than if you'd invested it in say, the Dow Jones (you can check that as well if you like).

I'm not going to respond any more on this thread other than firing personal insults at other posters and accusing them and me of lying doesn't suggest that you've read the facts (or argument) of what was said.

 

[Liamo]

What you're saying goes against official statistics

If Brexit is so bad why are you literally lying and spreading fake news.

Sounds like Project fear to me

So again which company and where in the EU are you posting from?

I'm not sure you can call those "official statistics." They come from one private financial consulting firm, Ernst & Young (EY).

Just for comparison, here's another set of figures. I wouldn't say that they're "official" either, but they're certainly different.

According to the website Small Business Prices, there were already, due to Brexit:

436,296 Jobs Lost As Of 31 January 2020

Again according to their figures breaking down the losses by sector, this included:

Finance: 18,399

Brexit Job Loss Index: 436,296 Jobs Lost As Of 31 January 2020

I couldn't say whether they're more accurate than the EY figures but I think they show that those figures are at least open to question.

 

[LessoftheLip]

How many posters does WJH have to accuse of lying before he gets pulled up for it

 

[WJH.]

Germany is in recession after briefly coming out of recession

www.forbes.com/sites/simonconstable/2023/08/28/germanys-epic-recession-continues-economy-still-cant-catch-a-break/amp/

The whole of the EU was expected to go into recession this winter.

Eurozone sinks into recession as cost of living crisis takes toll

GDP shrank 0.1% in first quarter of 2023 and final three months of 2022 after revisions to earlier estimates

www.theguardian.com

By the same logic, Brexit will be responsible for job losses on the continent of which tens of thousands have been announced

European companies cut jobs as economy sputters

Decades-high inflation and the impact of war in Ukraine have forced companies across Europe into lay-offs or hiring freezes.

www.reuters.com

Estonia is in recession due to "Europe's longest recession"

Europe’s Longest Recession Grips Estonia as Region Suffers

Estonia’s economy struggled to break out of the European Union’s most sustained contraction as a drop in trade with the Nordic region and an energy shock spurred by Russia’s war in Ukraine take a toll.

www.bloomberg.com

Italy avoided a "technical recession" by growing 0.1% after contracting the previous quarter but the outlook for 2024 remains poor

Italy's economy escapes recession but clouds loom for 2024

Euronews Business takes a closer look at Italy's current economic situation as its latest gross domestic product (GDP) figures are released.

www.euronews.com

Other forecasts for the Eurozone, which says loans are down which is an indicator of recession.

In a recession, out of one, on the brink? Here’s where Europe stands

While the timing of the recession is difficult to predict, one thing that is for sure is that the downside potential to future economic growth of Europe is real, Osama Rizvi writes.

www.euronews.com

 

[Laughing]

And yet you're sticking up for an imaginary company that fired all these imaginary workers

When you're on the side of fake news you probably should be quiet

You are spreading fake news too. Starmer had ruled out rejoining the EU in the next Parliament because he is not stupid enough to talk about labours plans for a second term when he doesn't have to.

Are you trying to talk me into not voting Labour?

 

[WJH.]

Bit of info on the Russian sanctions which seems to have been delayed possibly by economic interests in the EU.

Also some information about Portugals political crisis which could lead to a financial crisis. The portugal prime minister resigned last month in a corruption scandal involving wire traps from prosecutors.

Portugal: Will the political crisis bring about an economic one?

Voting on the budget is the glue that holds the Portuguese parliament together, but amid a corruption scandal that has sent the government packing, what comes next for the country's feeble economy?

www.euronews.com

Why the delay to the EU’s next package of Russia sanctions?

Also in this newsletter: Europe’s weekend of protests

www.ft.com

EU hits end of the line on Russian energy sanctions

Economic interests and opposition from Hungary mean new restrictions are unlikely to hit the Kremlin’s war chest even as Kyiv urges tougher action.

www.politico.eu

There's also quite alot of criticism in the news of Ursula Von Der Leyen over her conduct with regards to Isreal.

 

[WJH.]

You are spreading fake news too. Starmer had ruled out rejoining the EU in the next Parliament because he is not stupid enough to talk about labours plans for a second term when he doesn't have to.

Are you trying to talk me into not voting Labour?

Or he doesn't believe in rejoining.

 

[Laughing]

Or he doesn't believe in rejoining.

So you were peddling misinformation.

You do have a fairly aggressive posting style that isn't necessary

 

[LessoftheLip]

So you were peddling misinformation.

You do have a fairly aggressive posting style that isn't necessary

The poster is almost certainly exiledinboro who left the board earlier in the year after deleting almost every post he'd ever made on here.

 

[SmallTown]

There's apparently 7000 jobs that have moved since Brexit and that's divided by 400 firms

Source?

Thats sounds ridiculously low.

 

[Nero]

I believe once the generation that ****ed it up is gone the younger generation will restore EU membership. There is and never was any benefit to leaving the EU.

 

[SmallTown]

Your company accounts for 1/5 of staff relocations

It's hardly going to be a secret that one firm is responsible for 1 in 5 staff relocations

Unless it's not true

Which part of the EU are you posting from now?

It accounts for 1/5 according to your figures, of which you have cited no source.
Also you seem happy to drill into the figures, so why ask him what part of the EU he is posting from? Did he say all jobs were moved from the UK? Or are you making things up

 

[SmallTown]

Denmark has an opt out so that’s a bit of a red herring. Sweden though, you are right, doesn’t. It is merely taking forever to do what it is technically obliged to do eventually.

There is absolutely no legal reason why either legal solution could not be adopted for a rejoining UK, although there may be plenty of political reasons why either legal solution would not be palatable to the existing member states.

It's not really a red herring. Jsut a fact that one of the most persistent brexit lies is we will lose the pound. Which would suggest that all EU countries have the euro. Which is untrue. Thays all I was trying to counter.

I don't think Sweden will join the euro. I know they once had a referendum where the pro euro campaign told them they would have tax cuts. Which they quite rightly translated as cuts to services and rejected it

 

[SmallTown]

Germany is in recession after briefly coming out of recession

www.forbes.com/sites/simonconstable/2023/08/28/germanys-epic-recession-continues-economy-still-cant-catch-a-break/amp/

The whole of the EU was expected to go into recession this winter.

Eurozone sinks into recession as cost of living crisis takes toll

GDP shrank 0.1% in first quarter of 2023 and final three months of 2022 after revisions to earlier estimates

www.theguardian.com

By the same logic, Brexit will be responsible for job losses on the continent of which tens of thousands have been announced

European companies cut jobs as economy sputters

Decades-high inflation and the impact of war in Ukraine have forced companies across Europe into lay-offs or hiring freezes.

www.reuters.com

Estonia is in recession due to "Europe's longest recession"

Europe’s Longest Recession Grips Estonia as Region Suffers

Estonia’s economy struggled to break out of the European Union’s most sustained contraction as a drop in trade with the Nordic region and an energy shock spurred by Russia’s war in Ukraine take a toll.

www.bloomberg.com

Italy avoided a "technical recession" by growing 0.1% after contracting the previous quarter but the outlook for 2024 remains poor

Italy's economy escapes recession but clouds loom for 2024

Euronews Business takes a closer look at Italy's current economic situation as its latest gross domestic product (GDP) figures are released.

www.euronews.com

Other forecasts for the Eurozone, which says loans are down which is an indicator of recession.

In a recession, out of one, on the brink? Here’s where Europe stands

While the timing of the recession is difficult to predict, one thing that is for sure is that the downside potential to future economic growth of Europe is real, Osama Rizvi writes.

www.euronews.com

The Eurozone is not the EU.

It's this level of misinformation that led to some people being conned by brexit in the first place. We should be above that dishonesty now

 

[Corco65]

There is no chance of the Poles, Czechs or Hungarians joining the Euro.

There won't be treaty change, but the EU won't expend any political capital in getting the UK to adopt a currency that it doesn't want. Also, I doubt the Franco-German axis in the EU want the UK having a say on monetary policy.

They might like the idea of having Liz Truss as a specialist advisor.

 

[SmallTown]

Do not be conned by der Leyen’s claptrap. The UK I is managing to get the best of the EU without the enormous handicap of paying a large penalty to Brussels to be a member and we do not have legions of UK MEPs racking up enormous flying and accommodation ”expenses” for doing very little. To rejoin the unauditable Brussels Circus would be stupidity.

I guess, as is usual with the brexiter "arguments" we aren't going to get any facts to back up these opinions.
Political debate has definitely failed since trump started the fake news stuff.
People like @Lottowyn can present their opinion as facts, without bothering to back it up by anything approaching a fact.

This is why I worry about reversing brexit. There are stil people who blindly belive in it defying all logic, common sense or reality

 

[WJH.]

The Eurozone is not the EU.

It's this level of misinformation that led to some people being conned by brexit in the first place. We should be above that dishonesty now

I never said it was

Seemed relevant information to me

I guess, as is usual with the brexiter "arguments" we aren't going to get any facts to back up these opinions.
Political debate has definitely failed since trump started the fake news stuff.
People like @Lottowyn can present their opinion as facts, without bothering to back it up by anything approaching a fact.

This is why I worry about reversing brexit. There are stil people who blindly belive in it defying all logic, common sense or reality

If you're so concerned about facts find the company that shifted 1000-15000 staff to the EU

 

[LaPennaBianca]

I never said it was

Seemed relevant information to me

Seems odd to point out that the world is experiencing economic difficulties and that the UK may have been spared them if it had avoided the economic drag and lost opportunity cost that Brexit has wrought. The only growth we've managed to achieve is from the fact we've had c700k people come into the country.

Ultimately, if you want to defend Brexit why not do it on the actual grounds that it's been a success - sovereignty.

It was a project of ideals and unfortunately ideals are costly. The fact that the majority of those that delivered and supported Brexit aren't paying the price is by-the-by for its supporters. We got the marginal first mover advantage for vaccines and that's all that matters.

 

[SmallTown]

I never said it was

Seemed relevant information to me



If you're so concerned about facts find the company that shifted 1000-15000 staff to the EU

No, that's the problem with brexit lies isn't it?

You don't have to say it was, just imply it like you did. It's a very weasely, cowardly way of trying to get a point across.

I notice you still haven't stated your source for the small amount of job you claim has been moved to he EU. If you're so concerned about facts I hope you'll have one yourself.


Or maybe @Lottowyn can help you with facts

 

[SmallTown]

Seems odd to point out that the world is experiencing economic difficulties and that the UK may have been spared them if it had avoided the economic drag and lost opportunity cost that Brexit has wrought. The only growth we've managed to achieve is from the fact we've had c700k people come into the country.

Ultimately, if you want to defend Brexit why not do it on the actual grounds that it's been a success - sovereignty.

It was a project of ideals and unfortunately ideals are costly. The fact that the majority of those that delivered and supported Brexit aren't paying the price is by-the-by for its supporters. We got the marginal first mover advantage for vaccines and that's all that matters.

I have to say though the "vaccine roll out being a brexit benefit" is just another brexit lie.

1. We hadn't fully left the EU at that point
2. We ALWAYS had a different regulator to allow drugs to be released than the rest of the EU
3. Even if those first 2 weren't true, countries had sovereignty over their own vaccine rollout