Brexit - positives Remainers acknowledge, negatives Leavers acknowledge

[Nero]

The EU wants to be a supranational state not just an organisation. I didn't think it was beneficial to move that far.
I'm glad we are out for that reason but would have preferred an approach like Norway.

Yes there are problems with the transition but it will be a number of years before we know the full effects of leaving the EU.

So you'd prefer a situation where the UK breaks up and England continues a neoliberal approach to life, where eventually the Tories manage to complete gut the state?

The EU's social democratic terrified the likes of Rupert Murdoch, who also hated having zero influence over anyone working in Brussels.

 

[SuperStu]

All that happens is the Tories will still let industries like steel go to the wall. It's ideological for them, not because they didn't know how to 'play the system' so to speak.

I do know what you mean though.

You're right of course about the tories. Maybe it's not the best example. I'm sure there will have been instances during the Labour gov too. I just generally have a feeling most other members were slightly better at knowing how to get away with stuff within the EU.

Maybe a better example is Swedens approach to the Euro. They've agreed they'll adopt it as their currency. They just haven't said when. Maybe they'll get round to it one day, maybe not. EU happy, Swedes happy. I don't think something like that would ever work here. The press would lose their heads. Politicians would insist that since it had been agreed it must have a timeframe attached and go ahead asap.

 

[NYboro]

The veto is not as clear cut as an absolute veto. Yes some important issues require all countries to agree.

However on other issues a majority is enough. If fewer than 4 countries vote against or abstain then the law passes. Population matters as member states representing 65% of all the people in the EU have to vote for the law for it to pass. However if 3 countries with 36% of the population vote against the law it will still pass unless a 4th country joins them.

When votes have been taken the UK has been on the losing side more than any other country

Something as important as a supranational state would require complete consensus and I'm sure the UK would not have been the only member to vote against. Regardless, a supranational state would be better than the shîtshow we have now.

 

[Millbrook]

Might be playing devil's advocate here, but what are the downsides of an EU Supranational state (pre-Brexit of course)?

Presumably it's the intangibles again - sovereignty, freedom, Great British Imperialism etc...

Yes but not sure whether Imperialism is a fair comment. Democracy, transparency, cost, bureaucracy.

I'm in favour of strong links and a trading partnership with the EU but think the long term political direction of travel will bring about it's downfall and be disadvantageous to individual countries.

 

[SuperStu]

So you'd prefer a situation where the UK breaks up

Yes I would. Think it would be a really good thing to stop the tories being able to govern Scotland and Wales. The people there don't want tory governments, they shouldn't always have to have them.

and England continues a neoliberal approach to life, where eventually the Tories manage to complete gut the state?

But hopefully not that part. Maybe it'll be easier to overcome the tories in a smaller country. Or maybe it'll be a bit easier if we have some neighbours on the same island as us living better lives under some sort of scandi model. Maybe there's some sort of colonial hangover by still having NI in the UK that nudges English people towards the tories and perhaps that would go away if the UK broke up. All a bit grasping at straws I know.

 

[Nero]

Yes but not sure whether Imperialism is a fair comment. Democracy, transparency, cost, bureaucracy.

I'm in favour of strong links and a trading partnership with the EU but think the long term political direction of travel will bring about it's downfall and be disadvantageous to individual countries.

No chance. I know loads of continental Europeans and none of them see a future without the EU. That argument from Brexiteers that Britain's departure will cause others to leave is another absolute falsehood.

 

[Nero]

Yes I would. Think it would be a really good thing to stop the tories being able to govern Scotland and Wales. The people there don't want tory governments, they shouldn't always have to have them.



But hopefully not that part. Maybe it'll be easier to overcome the tories in a smaller country. Or maybe it'll be a bit easier if we have some neighbours on the same island as us living better lives under some sort of scandi model. Maybe there's some sort of colonial hangover by still having NI in the UK that nudges English people towards the tories and perhaps that would go away if the UK broke up. All a bit grasping at straws I know.

I see your point, but the Tories don't govern Scotland or Wales. Every decision is made by their respective parliaments with the exception of defence and foreign policy. Why else is Scotland able to offer free Uni, medicine and such? The Tories in charge is a strong story that nationalists can get people to believe in though. It also allows them to deflect their own failings, which is what the SNP do all the time.

 

[Andy_W]

Yes I would. Think it would be a really good thing to stop the tories being able to govern Scotland and Wales. The people there don't want tory governments, they shouldn't always have to have them.

I agree that they shouldn't have to put up with Tory rule, but the thing is, if the UK breaks up, England is pretty much stuck with the Tories, even more so than we have been in recent history.

In England, the Tories have 342 seats (from 361 total, 95% of their seats are in England), Labour 176 (from 199, 88% in England), and the rest have 13, although one of those is the speaker.

Effectively this would mean the new majority required would be around 265, and I don't see the Tories getting anywhere near that low, not now, not even just in England.

We in England need the others to keep hating the Tories, as it dilutes the Tory majority, the only hope is they don't get that and we get a coalition.

 

[SuperStu]

the Tories don't govern Scotland or Wales. Every decision is made by their respective parliaments with the exception of defence and foreign policy.

To an extent. Westminster controls the purse strings and most importantly the Westminster parliament could remove the Scottish Parliament or the Senedd.

 

[SuperStu]

We in England need the others to keep hating the Tories

To me that's a bit of a crabs in a bucket approach. Wanting them to stay just so we all suffer together under tory governments.

As I said, hopefully if the make up of the UK changed, that'd cause some big political changes in Englands electorate. Maybe it would, maybe not.

It'd be pretty strange IMO if Scotland became independent and in England there was just no change in attitudes whatsoever. Surely a massive constitutional change like that would have an impact.

 

[Nero]

To an extent. Westminster controls the purse strings and most importantly the Westminster parliament could remove the Scottish Parliament or the Senedd.

That will never happen though. Can you imagine Scots accepting that? Not a chance. Scotland would need to descend into almost civil war for justification to remove Holyrood.

 

[Andy_W]

I'm in favour of strong links and a trading partnership with the EU but think the long term political direction of travel will bring about it's downfall and be disadvantageous to individual countries.

The only trading partnership we need with the EU is to be in the Single Market and customs union, otherwise, we will get absolutely battered by the EU as they will simply be able to do things quicker, cheaper, more efficiently and with less red tape than us (as we need to import from them). Our companies will not be able to compete on an international scale, and the rest will take the piece of the pie that we lose.

We've drunk the kool-aid, nobody else respectable is going to be daft enough to follow us.

You might get one or two other far-right/ lunatic countries leaving eventually, but I can't imagine the respectable ones will care too much about them, and they will get an even worse "deal" than us.

 

[changingman]

Yes but not sure whether Imperialism is a fair comment. Democracy, transparency, cost, bureaucracy.

I'm in favour of strong links and a trading partnership with the EU but think the long term political direction of travel will bring about it's downfall and be disadvantageous to individual countries.

Perhaps not, but there certainly seemed to be a core of Brexit voters who saw GB as some kind of global megapower to whose every demand the world would bend. That hasn't been true for around 200 years now.

Of the four reasons stated, I think only bureaucracy really holds up although I'd trust 27 heads of state working together to come to a more reasoned agreement than the feckless idiot we have in charge here at the moment.

It's true that no-one can accurately forecast the long term direction of travel but I've seen nothing that makes me sceptical about the project or its intentions.

 

[Andy_W]

To me that's a bit of a crabs in a bucket approach. Wanting them to stay just so we all suffer together under tory governments.

As I said, hopefully if the make up of the UK changed, that'd cause some big political changes in Englands electorate. Maybe it would, maybe not.

It'd be pretty strange IMO if Scotland became independent and in England there was just no change in attitudes whatsoever. Surely a massive constitutional change like that would have an impact.

No, I think we can overcome a tory majority, as the whole UK, as the tories are and will be further imploding. This could help rebuild the UK, and could possibly even kill the tories off, or at least bring them closer to the centre, and they will end up losing votes to new further right parties.

One thing that could happen though, is if Labour get in, to get SNP support they may need to offer indyref 2, and if they get that soon after a switchover then it won't be enough time to make amends, and Scotland might leave us. I don't think idyref 2 would go through mind if the tories had been gone a couple of years (and had little sign of coming back as bad as they are now.

I think if we stick together, the suffering can be overcome together, but if they all leave they will probably end up worse off economically, and then we get beaten to death by tories in England.

 

[changingman]

If Scotland rejoin the EU they won't. And that will be my cue to move there

 

[LaPennaBianca]

The veto is not as clear cut as an absolute veto. Yes some important issues require all countries to agree.

However on other issues a majority is enough. If fewer than 4 countries vote against or abstain then the law passes. Population matters as member states representing 65% of all the people in the EU have to vote for the law for it to pass. However if 3 countries with 36% of the population vote against the law it will still pass unless a 4th country joins them.

When votes have been taken the UK has been on the losing side more than any other country

You're talking about QMV which wouldn't apply to treaty changes or extensions of EU powers.

 

[SuperStu]

No, I think we can overcome a tory majority, as the whole UK, as the tories are and will be further imploding.

Probably right. But they'll be back won't they? Always are. We'll get 5-10 years of something else eventually, and then another 20 year tory gov. And the something else will probably be as close to tory policies as possible anyway.

 

[Millbrook]

So you'd prefer a situation where the UK breaks up and England continues a neoliberal approach to life, where eventually the Tories manage to complete gut the state?

The EU's social democratic terrified the likes of Rupert Murdoch, who also hated having zero influence over anyone working in Brussels.

I cannot imagine why that is the only alternative available nor why you would presume to project such an opinion on me.

 

[Millbrook]

No chance. I know loads of continental Europeans and none of them see a future without the EU. That argument from Brexiteers that Britain's departure will cause others to leave is another absolute falsehood.

I agree it's a falsehood and that there is strong support for the EU. Longer term I see that waning.

 

[Millbrook]

You're talking about QMV which wouldn't apply to treaty changes or extensions of EU powers.

Agreed