Brexit - deal or no deal?

[Trug]

Irish second referendum ?

The Lisbon Treaty?
As I understand it- and I stand to be corrected- The Irish voted against the ratification of The European Constitution as it stood.
The EU amended the Ratification process and offered this to the Irish. The Irish voted to accept this.
So how is this "going to the wire"- The Irish got another referendum which is a damn sight more than we will get.

 

[NYboro]

The Lisbon Treaty?
As I understand it- and I stand to be corrected- The Irish voted against the ratification of The European Constitution as it stood.
The EU amended the Ratification process and offered this to the Irish. The Irish voted to accept this.
So how is this "going to the wire"- The Irish got another referendum which is a damn sight more than we will get.

It's called clutching at straws.

 

[Same_as_before]

It's called clutching at straws.

Whereas every remain message is solid as a rock

 

[Same_as_before]

Why

The Lisbon Treaty?
As I understand it- and I stand to be corrected- The Irish voted against the ratification of The European Constitution as it stood.
The EU amended the Ratification process and offered this to the Irish. The Irish voted to accept this.
So how is this "going to the wire"- The Irish got another referendum which is a damn sight more than we will get.

Why should there be a second referendum ?

 

[Lefty]

No I am getting rid of the myth that it was an unfair referendum, all the cards were with the establishment.

Being brought up a left wing Catholic I was taught never to trust the establishment.

There are a few things to counter here, from the errors in your list, the lack of account taken for the Russian troll farms on social media and cambridge analytica influence as well as the unknown funding that came in secretly via Northern Ireland under anti-terrorism disclosure protections, to the fact significant numbers of minds were made up long before the official campaigns started. There had been decades of anti EU sentiment allowed to permeate the narrative in the UK without contention by the establishment. You say the BBC were biased towards Remain and yet there was an anaysis done of the 50 MEP's invited on to question time between 2010 and 2019 and there were no Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid or Green MEP's given a slot, but 45 UKIP MEP's, 2 Brexit Party MEP's and Conservative MEP and leading Brexiter Daniel 'absolutely no-one is talking about leaving the Single Market' Hannan twice. Farage personally appeared 23 times. What this did was prevent those MEP's with actual knowledge of how the EU worked - UKIP MEP's were embarrassingly ignorant - to the public. Most Westminster MP's had very little knowledge of how the EU works. The public, therefore, were fed a biased and, more importantly, an inaccurate portrait of the EU.

Let's park all that though. You've been unable to actually engage with anything approaching an open mind on this for close to half a decade, I'm unlikely to get you to now.

Let's instead just try and figure out what your own reasoning is here and please do correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm trying to delve a layer deeper into something that I think you aren't saying because, to you, it is obvious. On our (Remainers) part we often do not also state what we think is so obvious it just doesn't need to be. Hence the discussion founders before it has barely started, because were are talking in different languages almost.

You believe that the Brexit was the right thing to do because that was the result in the referendum. You also believe that the result of the referendum means that Brexit must also be the right decision because that is how people voted. You cite the various parties on both sides of the debate and the money spent and this is to demonstrate that the referendum was broadly a fair contest in terms of resources and influence and thus the decision people came to was a genuine reflection of the future direction they wanted the UK to go.

Is that a reasonable summary of your position?

 

[Trug]

Why
Why should there be a second referendum ?

The EU listened to why the Irish rejected the first referendum, offered the Irish government an amended ratification that took into account of what the Irish people were saying and the Irish government gave their citizens another referendum regarding the new Ratification process. Voila- democracy in action.

 

[LaPennaBianca]

No I am getting rid of the myth that it was an unfair referendum, all the cards were with the establishment.

Being brought up a left wing Catholic I was taught never to trust the establishment.

I was brought up a left wing Catholic too. And part of that wasn't trusting the Conservative party to do owt for us. You must have missed that day.

 

[Same_as_before]

There are a few things to counter here, from the errors in your list, the lack of account taken for the Russian troll farms on social media and cambridge analytica influence as well as the unknown funding that came in secretly via Northern Ireland under anti-terrorism disclosure protections, to the fact significant numbers of minds were made up long before the official campaigns started. There had been decades of anti EU sentiment allowed to permeate the narrative in the UK without contention by the establishment. You say the BBC were biased towards Remain and yet there was an anaysis done of the 50 MEP's invited on to question time between 2010 and 2019 and there were no Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid or Green MEP's given a slot, but 45 UKIP MEP's, 2 Brexit Party MEP's and Conservative MEP and leading Brexiter Daniel 'absolutely no-one is talking about leaving the Single Market' Hannan twice. Farage personally appeared 23 times. What this did was prevent those MEP's with actual knowledge of how the EU worked - UKIP MEP's were embarrassingly ignorant - to the public. Most Westminster MP's had very little knowledge of how the EU works. The public, therefore, were fed a biased and, more importantly, an inaccurate portrait of the EU.

Let's park all that though. You've been unable to actually engage with anything approaching an open mind on this for close to half a decade, I'm unlikely to get you to now.

Let's instead just try and figure out what your own reasoning is here and please do correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm trying to delve a layer deeper into something that I think you aren't saying because, to you, it is obvious. On our (Remainers) part we often do not also state what we think is so obvious it just doesn't need to be. Hence the discussion founders before it has barely started, because were are talking in different languages almost.

You believe that the Brexit was the right thing to do because that was the result in the referendum. You also believe that the result of the referendum means that Brexit must also be the right decision because that is how people voted. You cite the various parties on both sides of the debate and the money spent and this is to demonstrate that the referendum was broadly a fair contest in terms of resources and influence and thus the decision people came to was a genuine reflection of the future direction they wanted the UK to go.

Is that a reasonable summary of your position?

I would say that was spot on . I blame you and the rest for the disaster of the last election. You gave it to Boris on a plate. 'i will give you Brexit' what was our response, because Corbyn was terrified of your wing of the party ' er we will look at it. Because of that we will get either a no deal or a hard exit. Why could you not let Corbyn say 'The decision has been made.' Then he could have softened the blow. But because of your intrangisence we have a lunatic who makes his brother a Lord, will be able to say ' I gave you Brexit' and Oh and by the way we were the first country to have the vaccine.

I could cry with your selfishness, your in not you the individual but the whole.

Sorry for the poor grammar before the police turn up.

 

[Same_as_before]

I was brought up a left wing Catholic too. And part of that wasn't trusting the Conservative party to do owt for us. You must have missed that day.

You are wrong there , I have only ever voted Labour. The Tory party were Remainers by roughly 185 member to 135, I may be slightly out .

 

[Same_as_before]

The EU listened to why the Irish rejected the first referendum, offered the Irish government an amended ratification that took into account of what the Irish people were saying and the Irish government gave their citizens another referendum regarding the new Ratification process. Voila- democracy in action.

But our referendum was singular In or Out, it had nothing to do with any treaty.

 

[LaPennaBianca]

You are wrong there , I have only ever voted Labour. The Tory party were Remainers by roughly 185 member to 135, I may be slightly out .

If you dont think Brexit was a wholly Conservative concoction - called to resolve internal party tension, then you've rocks in your head. 1% of the country cared about it before Cameron,Gove and Boris made their psychodrama our problem.

While many traditional Labour voters supported Brexit, the majority of its voters did not. Nor did the majority of its MPs. Those that did - Stewart, Field and Hoey - are now in the House of Lords thanks to peerages from a Tory government.

Now you can bang on about having only ever voted Labour - but you're doing the Tories' work for them by supporting a project that they are in sole control of.

I know that people of your age, with property and triple lock pensions will be alright, but what about the millions who will have to actually deal with the economic fall out of this farce?

Only 1% of Brits cared much about the EU before the 2016 Brexit vote

Oh, how times have changed.

www.google.com

 

[HarryVegas]

In yet another Brexit bonus, billionaire Sir Jim Ratcliffe, Ineos owner and Leave campaigner in the run-up to the 2016 Brexit referendum, has confirmed production of his Landrovers will be moved to France. Thankfully, he says the vehicle will be full of "rugged, British spirit".

So that's alright then.

 

[Laughing]

It appears that clauses 44, 45 and 47 have now been removed from the internal market bill so that removes one obstacle to a tariff free deal. It also, more importantly, protects the good friday agreement.

 

[Angus]

It appears that clauses 44, 45 and 47 have now been removed from the internal market bill so that removes one obstacle to a tariff free deal. It also, more importantly, protects the good friday agreement.

Taking something out that should never have been there doesn’t give me huge amount of confidence that it’s going to make a significant difference. I think a compromise will be achieved but I think we will have to give more than them because the stakes are higher for us. Brexiteer car maker sets up on the France/Germany border! Brexit what a con job for the British worker.

 

[Same_as_before]

Taking something out that should never have been there doesn’t give me huge amount of confidence that it’s going to make a significant difference. I think a compromise will be achieved but I think we will have to give more than them because the stakes are higher for us. Brexiteer car maker sets up on the France/Germany border! Brexit what a con job for the British worker.

Another bit of bad news.

 

[Centralscrutinizer]

Not reneging on the Withdrawal Agreement just puts us back to trying to act like a trustworthy country again. Sounds like we're willing to compromise on fishing quotas as well.
Neither of these will make any difference to the main issue, Level Playing Field, the Europeans wont allow their internal market to be compromised. They've been sat there saying this for 4.5 years and our clown show of a government still don't get it.

 

[Same_as_before]

If you dont think Brexit was a wholly Conservative concoction - called to resolve internal party tension, then you've rocks in your head. 1% of the country cared about it before Cameron,Gove and Boris made their psychodrama our problem.

While many traditional Labour voters supported Brexit, the majority of its voters did not. Nor did the majority of its MPs. Those that did - Stewart, Field and Hoey - are now in the House of Lords thanks to peerages from a Tory government.

Now you can bang on about having only ever voted Labour - but you're doing the Tories' work for them by supporting a project that they are in sole control of.

I know that people of your age, with property and triple lock pensions will be alright, but what about the millions who will have to actually deal with the economic fall out of this farce?

Only 1% of Brits cared much about the EU before the 2016 Brexit vote

Oh, how times have changed.

www.google.com

Ah the jealousy line. Blame the elderly. Why not hope they die quickly that has been the position on here before. Vile.

 

[Same_as_before]

Not reneging on the Withdrawal Agreement just puts us back to trying to act like a trustworthy country again. Sounds like we're willing to compromise on fishing quotas as well.
Neither of these will make any difference to the main issue, Level Playing Field, the Europeans wont allow their internal market to be compromised. They've been sat there saying this for 4.5 years and our clown show of a government still don't get it.

I want to know what clear easy message we (Labour) will give at the next election to win back Workington Redcar and Blythe. Do you think saying Boris is a clown does it. Does returning to Clause 4 written in 1918 before cars were mainstream, Coal was the power of production, electricity was no where near in every house, the Newspapers had no competition?

Good grief make it simple e.g, Mondeo man , or We will get Brexit' done .

I could win Labour by a landslide on here by putting a donkey up, thus place is not the country.

 

[Same_as_before]

In yet another Brexit bonus, billionaire Sir Jim Ratcliffe, Ineos owner and Leave campaigner in the run-up to the 2016 Brexit referendum, has confirmed production of his Landrovers will be moved to France. Thankfully, he says the vehicle will be full of "rugged, British spirit".

So that's alright then.

Take his toys of him, the knighthood. I don't care if creates jobs in the UK or gives to charity.

 

[Centralscrutinizer]

I want to know what clear easy message we (Labour) will give at the next election to win back Workington Redcar and Blythe. Do you think saying Boris is a clown does it. Does returning to Clause 4 written in 1918 before cars were mainstream, Coal was the power of production, electricity was no where near in every house, the Newspapers had no competition?

Good grief make it simple e.g, Mondeo man , or We will get Brexit' done .

I could win Labour by a landslide on here by putting a donkey up, thus place is not the country.

I'm not "Labour" so I can't answer your question on their behalf