1930s Germany has arrived in the UK

[JonnyHistory]

Don't think you really understand where I am coming from. You keep talking about 2 sides. There are lots and lots of sides.

You are looking at it so narrowly. I don't think that labour voters are as bad as Tory voters as I don't see them as two sides. People as a whole are polarised. This is not a line with Tories (Nazis) on one side and labour on the other.

Pointless debate anyway. You don't think it's an act of polarisation to say Tories are Nazis because you think they are Nazis.

I do see where you are coming from but with all things, there is a source and in this case, that division is sown from the top.

If you had read my comments I have said multiple times it is hyperbolic to claim Tories are Nazi's, what I have said is the path we are on is one towards fascism and a far-right ideology. This is being enabled through Nazi/fascist tactics.

 

[JonnyHistory]

@Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret There are not many sides, we live in a two-party state effectively, and we have two choices on how we are governed.

One side is emboldening the far fringes of our society the other isn't. Within that yes there will be many factions but essentially this is a two-horse race and one of those horses leads down a path that will do irrevical damage to our country.

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

I do see where you are coming from but with all things, there is a source and in this case, that division is sown from the top.

If you had read my comments I have said multiple times it is hyperbolic to claim Tories are Nazi's, what I have said is the path we are on is one towards fascism and a far-right ideology. This is being enabled through Nazi/fascist tactics.

See I disagree with you completely there. I don't think politics shape. They reflect.

 

[Redwurzel]

JH

Where would you place Thatcher and the 1980s Conservative Party - on your fascist/nonfascist spectrum? and how does that compare with Boris Johnson and the current party?

 

[The Ruthsayer]

Who is in control of rhe electoral commissioner?

There isn’t a single Commissioner.
The Commission Board comprises:

• a Chair
• four Commissioners nominated by political parties represented in the House of Commons
• three Commissioners appointed as leads for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales
• two other Commissioners

Are you suggesting that our elections are not just and fair? What is your alternative?

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

@Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret There are not many sides, we live in a two-party state effectively, and we have two choices on how we are governed.

One side is emboldening the far fringes of our society the other isn't. Within that yes there will be many factions but essentially this is a two-horse race and one of those horses leads down a path that will do irrevical damage to our country.

I am talking about polarisation. I like star trek. You like star wars. We both call each other ***** because we like different films. Neither star wars or star trek has any relation to labour and the Tories or left wing/right wing.

You are talking about politics and reducing my wider point into a smaller debate.

 

[JonnyHistory]

See I disagree with you completely there. I don't think politics shape. They reflect.

Would you have been bothered about Brexit if it hadn't politically been birthed? Was that really a reflection of our society? Do you think that division and want were there without the fire being stoked? It is naive to think politics is a reflection of society, the only thing it reflects all too often is the apathy of UK voters. Is a country's decision to go to war a reflection of public mood? How about the current PM telling people they shouldn't get wage rises? Is that a reflection of what society wants now?

Disingenuous politicians feed off people's insecurities and fears and weaponize them, they don't reflect the reality they just exploit it and in the case of our current leaders stoke more division by creating more 'others' in society for people to be angry at.

 

[JonnyHistory]

There isn’t a single Commissioner.
The Commission Board comprises:

• a Chair
• four Commissioners nominated by political parties represented in the House of Commons
• three Commissioners appointed as leads for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales
• two other Commissioners

Are you suggesting that our elections are not just and fair? What is your alternative?

remove FPTP and replace it with PR

have an elected second chamber

remove private money and lobbying from politics

that would be a start.

 

[SmallTown]

There isn’t a single Commissioner.
The Commission Board comprises:

• a Chair
• four Commissioners nominated by political parties represented in the House of Commons
• three Commissioners appointed as leads for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales
• two other Commissioners

Are you suggesting that our elections are not just and fair? What is your alternative?

Very snakey and politican loke. Avoding answering the question!

I'll try asking again, but from a different angle: have the government recently passed a bil to bring the electoral commission under their pirview

 

[JonnyHistory]

I am talking about polarisation. I like star trek. You like star wars. We both call each other ***** because we like different films. Neither star wars or star trek has any relation to labour and the Tories or left wing/right wing.

You are talking about politics and reducing my wider point into a smaller debate.

We are talking about the same thing, I am stating it starts at the top, I understand your point I am just saying from a historical perspective that is a naive point of view and goes against much of the scolarly articles on this subject I have read.

To create division you need a platform, joe blogs in the street, and his angry Twitter rants aren't going to make anyone hate refugees, but when the government comes out and says how bad they are and then treats them as if they are chattel, what message does that send out? The division is sown from the top.

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

Would you have been bothered about Brexit if it hadn't politically been birthed? Was that really a reflection of our society? Do you think that division and want were there without the fire being stoked? It is naive to think politics is a reflection of society, the only thing it reflects all too often is the apathy of UK voters. Is a country's decision to go to war a reflection of public mood? How about the current PM telling people they shouldn't get wage rises? Is that a reflection of what society wants now?

Disingenuous politicians feed off people's insecurities and fears and weaponize them, they don't reflect the reality they just exploit it and in the case of our current leaders stoke more division by creating more 'others' in society for people to be angry at.

Go on the internet. Find a hobby. Go to the message board about said hobby. You will find factions and open warfare between said factions. About the smallest most piffling things. This is not because right wing politicians have been working people into a lather. It is because we have evolved as competitive beings, and we are now communicating using a medium which has removed the threat of violence from the equation. This has nothing to do with trump or Nazis or any other demon we care to create.

 

[JonnyHistory]

Go on the internet. Find a hobby. Go to the message board about said hobby. You will find factions and open warfare between said factions. About the smallest most piffling things. This is not because right wing politicians have been working people into a lather. It is because we have evolved as competitive beings, and we are now communicating using a medium which has removed the threat of violence from the equation. This has nothing to do with trump or Nazis or any other demon we care to create.

Napoleon's propaganda came in the form of art and sculptures, non violent propaganda is nothing new.

 

[The Ruthsayer]

Very snakey and politican loke. Avoding answering the question!

I'll try asking again, but from a different angle: have the government recently passed a bil to bring the electoral commission under their pirview

Yes they have. The Elections Act. ST, you still have not responded to my original point: what books have been banned and do you believe that our elections are (or will be) no longer free or fair now that the Electoral Commission is under the purview of parliament?
Disappointed to see that you have resorted to personal insults. It does seem to happen whenever anyone challenges your viewpoint, which is disappointing as your arguments are often coherent, informed and interesting.

 

[RoaryTheLion]

Yes they have. The Elections Act. ST, you still have not responded to my original point: what books have been banned and do you believe that our elections are (or will be) no longer free or fair now that the Electoral Commission is under the purview of parliament?
Disappointed to see that you have resorted to personal insults. It does seem to happen whenever anyone challenges your viewpoint, which is disappointing as your arguments are often coherent, informed and interesting.

He’s also a monumental hypocrite who wilfully avoids any questions he is unable to provide a satisfactory answer for. The personal insults are a easily identified signal of this.

 

[JonnyHistory]

Go on the internet. Find a hobby. Go to the message board about said hobby. You will find factions and open warfare between said factions. About the smallest most piffling things. This is not because right wing politicians have been working people into a lather. It is because we have evolved as competitive beings, and we are now communicating using a medium which has removed the threat of violence from the equation. This has nothing to do with trump or Nazis or any other demon we care to create.

Also, an internet spat is not the same as dividing 50% of the country is it?

Divison exists at all levels, but only certain entities have the power and influence to cause it on a mass scale.

We can agree to disagree here and end our debate if that's ok, I would encourage you to look into this more, and read some scholarly articles and papers on the subject and I think you may have a different opinion, b ut then again maybe now we are all entitled to our own beliefs and ideas.

Have a lovely evening and I have enjoyed this spirited debate.

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

Napoleon's propaganda came in the form of art and sculptures, non violent propaganda is nothing new.

I'm talking about communicating virtually. Non face to face discourse. Not about propaganda. Sculptures. I don't see how thats relevant. This debate would be completely different if we were chatting in a pub. We would be able to interject. We would behave entirely differently if face to face.

 

[JonnyHistory]

I'm talking about communicating virtually. Non face to face discourse. Not about propaganda. Sculptures. I don't see how thats relevant. This debate would be completely different if we were chatting in a pub. We would be able to interject. We would behave entirely differently if face to face.

Quite possibly, these forums are difficult places to have such debates.

 

[SmallTown]

Yes they have. The Elections Act. ST, you still have not responded to my original point: what books have been banned and do you believe that our elections are (or will be) no longer free or fair now that the Electoral Commission is under the purview of parliament?
Disappointed to see that you have resorted to personal insults. It does seem to happen whenever anyone challenges your viewpoint, which is disappointing as your arguments are often coherent, informed and interesting.

Cutting through all the deflection. I'm glad you've finally admitted the government have taken control of the electoral commission. We got there! Now they have control do you expect them to allow free and fair elections? Or perhaps use it to their advantage? They didn't taken control accidentally

 

[Randy]

Who's our version of Hitler then?

 

[Warwickboro]

Anyway, should we go for Gyokeres or Gale?? I'm not sure I want us to blow that much on one striker but I'm glad we're back in the hunt again!!!