1930s Germany has arrived in the UK

Redwurzel said:
I have, thanks.

A quick but massive seizure of power in March 1933, effectively getting rid of any political opponents using the pretence of national security. Some were killed pretty well straight away, others put in camps, others fled the country or went underground. By June 1934 Hitler has even got rid of the Brownshirts (working class Nazis) who had helped a lot getting him into power.
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It was not quick, it was almost 2 decades of effort from the Nazis to get to that point. Naziism is rooted in the aftermath of WWI and in many ways is a product of war-time censorship and propaganda, the people never knew they were losing, they thought Germany was winning so when the armistice came there was mass confusion and anger. Nazism was born from the ashes of that anger. It was not a quick process it took time as their previous attempts to gain power show.

Nothing happens in isolation, any event will have a web of a lineage that can date back centuries in some cases, so whilst you are correct in saying from the election to complete Nazi control, happened relatively suddenly, this was only possible off the back of almost two decades of effort on their part.

Read about the beer hall putsch to learn more about failed Nazi attempts at claiming power prior to 1934.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Personally I'm a lot more concerned about polarisation than I am of us sleepwalking into a fascist regime. I think this is an example of it. I do not agree with your politics. You are a nazi.
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The polarization is part of that ideology though, you are literally agreeing with the points being raised here.

populism or however you want to label it, is prominent in right-wing politics on both sides of the Atlantic now, and there is a real chance, certainly in America that they could slide down the fascist or even in America's case a theocratic track and lose their democracy to a large extent.

Just because we are not mass murdering, doesn't mean there is no fascism or fascist undertones to current government policy.
 
Redwurzel said:
I have, thanks.

A quick but massive seizure of power in March 1933, effectively getting rid of any political opponents using the pretence of national security. Some were killed pretty well straight away, others put in camps, others fled the country or went underground. By June 1934 Hitler has even got rid of the Brownshirts (working class Nazis) who had helped a lot getting him into power.
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Following the Enabling Act, which allowed Hitler to issue laws without the consent of parliament.
 
JonnyHistory said:
The polarization is part of that ideology though, you are literally agreeing with the points being raised here.

populism or however you want to label it, is prominent in right-wing politics on both sides of the Atlantic now, and there is a real chance, certainly in America that they could slide down the fascist or even in America's case a theocratic track and lose their democracy to a large extent.

Just because we are not mass murdering, doesn't mean there is no fascism or fascist undertones to current government policy.
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Polarisation comes from both sides. Was reading an article about the "change" group demonising Corbyn the other day. Bemoaning his "populism" The polarisation we see in modern society has nothing to do with Nazi Germany. It's not relevant. It is due to the way we communicate with the advent of the internet and the way information is controlled and accessed. The polarisation comes from trying to associate with nazism.

All this talk of proles and the popular masses and populism I find a bit skin crawly actually. Too much of a look at the foolish plebs vibe.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Polarisation comes from both sides. Was reading an article about the "change" group demonising Corbyn the other day. Bemoaning his "populism" The polarisation we see in modern society has nothing to do with Nazi Germany. It's not relevant. It is due to the way we communicate with the advent of the internet and the way information is controlled and accessed. The polarisation comes from trying to associate with nazism.

All this talk of proles and the popular masses and populism I find a bit skin crawly actually. Too much of a look at the foolish plebs vibe.
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So both sides are to blame is your opinion on this? Not the people who have been in power and literally divided a country with a referendum? And then, have continued to stoke that division and finger point and lie?
No MP or government has done things to this level, certainly in modern times, we are in unprecedented territory when it comes to the direction our country is going.

I have tried to debate you in a friendly way with information and experiences I have garnered over my studies and working life, I have not insulted you or tried to insinuate you are a "foolish pleb" I was born in raised in cannon Park in a single-family, myself 3 siblings and my mum, who because of her disabilities couldn't work. That hardship has encouraged me to try and make the world a better place for those people I have the privilege to work with, socialize with or teach. I don't look down or think I am better than anyone else. I am happy to debate our conflicting views on this but let's not go down the personal insult route, please.

Populism as with fascism comes in many flavours, Corby yes in many respects was a populist but his manifesto and ideas were based around helping people in this country, the brand/flavour of populism from the right is not the same. It is dangerous, division sowing and there just to appease. Both sides are not the same and I think despite your position you are aware of that.
 
Redwurzel said:
I have, thanks.

A quick but massive seizure of power in March 1933, effectively getting rid of any political opponents using the pretence of national security. Some were killed pretty well straight away, others put in camps, others fled the country or went underground. By June 1934 Hitler has even got rid of the Brownshirts (working class Nazis) who had helped a lot getting him into power.
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People like you must have helped. Denying anything is wrong, as rights get eroded, protests quelled, and the government gains more and more power. Obsequious shills like you try and defend it. Unaware that they'll come for you too. Unless you're a wealthy donor to the party, the fascism will hit you
 
The Ruthsayer said:
It’s not though, is it ST? We still have free elections (both parties gerrymander whenever they can), as far as I can see we are not banning or burning books (the domain of the right-wing Christians in the US), and we are not imprisoning people for their beliefs. I agree with much that has been said, but we must trade in facts, or lose credibility.
Sadly, as the late and wonderful Sir Terry observed ‘what’s in the public interest is not what the public is interested in’. We need to change that, but hyperbole is not our friend here.
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It absolutely is. Free elections? OK. Who is in charge of the electoral commission again?
 
Absolutely I think polarisation comes from both sides. You are thinking in terms of party politics though, I'm not. It isn't as a result of right wingers wanting to divide us all. It's as a result of changes in the way we communicate.

My issues with the tone of the debate aren't anything to do with you that's just a general comment. Not on this thread. On the level of debate we have these days generally. I'm not making any personal comment or insult there.

All I see happening here is Godwin's law.
 
SmallTown said:
It absolutely is. Free elections? OK. Who is in charge of the electoral commission again?
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SmallTown said:
It absolutely is. Free elections? OK. Who is in charge of the electoral commission again?
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It is an independent body and no party has suggested it is biased. Our elections are also acknowledged as free and fair by the UN.
I also do not see us as a country (unlike Amazon) banning books. I am not saying we do not need to be vigilant, but if we exaggerate we do lose credibility.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Absolutely I think polarisation comes from both sides. You are thinking in terms of party politics though, I'm not. It isn't as a result of right wingers wanting to divide us all. It's as a result of changes in the way we communicate.

My issues with the tone of the debate aren't anything to do with you that's just a general comment. Not on this thread. On the level of debate we have these days generally. I'm not making any personal comment or insult there.

All I see happening here is Godwin's law.
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Politics lead to that polarisation though and the divisional rhetoric that the far-right feed off is only coming from one place. Society feeds off that, dog-whistles embolden racists, blaming others for issues causes resentment towards them and again only one side (politically) is doing that. We are in this position because of the tactics employed by politicians so whilst yes party politics is not solely to blame it is 90% of the reason because, without that emboldening from the government for people with fringe views, we wouldn't be seeing this level of division and partisanship we see now.

Nazism is in essence extreme nationalism, please answer me this, has that been on the rise since Brexit?

if you agree it has can you honestly say that is the fault of both sides?

We can disagree and I suspect do on many things, but to say both sides are as bad as each other I think is disingenuous and just gives justification to those who want to see our country devolve into a far-right cess pit, sadly, on their part mostly out of ignorance to the truth of what is happening politically.

Forms of communication change, Napoleon changed the way propaganda was used because it came at a time of new media, the way he utilised it and the strategies he employed are more or less the same as what we see in modern politics. How people communicate can help send a message quicker and give more options to spread said message, but it doesn't change the fundamental nature of what they are trying to achieve.
This is a calculated strategy, it is the same tactics on both sides of the Atlantic, as I mentioned previously on another thread Trump and Boris used the same election advisor and have numerous political ties (most notably Russian money), the far-right is organised and will do anything for power, Boris and his fawning front bench are an existential threat to our democracy in my opinion. To say Labour and left voters are the same as far-right is demonstrably incorrect though (the far-left is a different matter and I believe that anyone with far=right or left ideology are a danger to society because of their vision of how the world should be is not in line with those of us in or either side of the middle.
 
The Ruthsayer said:
It is an independent body and no party has suggested it is biased. Our elections are also acknowledged as free and fair by the UN.
I also do not see us as a country (unlike Amazon) banning books. I am not saying we do not need to be vigilant, but if we exaggerate we do lose credibility.
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Who is in control of rhe electoral commissioner?
 
JonnyHistory said:
I believe that anyone with far=right or left ideology are a danger to society because of their vision of how the world should be is not in line with those of us in or either side of the middle.
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Jean-Pierre Faye called it the horseshoe theory. This came about as a way to rationalise the frankly absurd Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Nazism only progressed beyond the borders of Germany due to an agreement with the far left (Soviet Union).
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Well yes quite. People have long since abandoned the concept of an argument being lost when you have to stoop to comparing such and such to the Nazis.
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Fascism then. The nazi party are just a handy go to because a: everyone knows them and b: they acted the same way in the 1930s that this government is doing now.

Feel free to pick your own fascist junta to compare them top if Nazi offends.
 
As a country/population we have to aware of demonisation. Demonisation is the building block of extremism. In genaral the UK to me is a reasonable tolerant nation, attracting people from many different countries of the World, creating an increasingly diverse population.

There have been definite elements of demonisation in the UK with parties like the EDL, particularly against people of the muslim faith in recent years.

Some might say this was also present with the UK's decision to send troops to Afganistan in so called war on Terror, which I was not comfortable with.
 
Redwurzel said:
As a country/population we have to aware of demonisation. Demonisation is the building block of extremism. In genaral the UK to me is a reasonable tolerant nation, attracting people from many different countries of the World, creating an increasingly diverse population.

There have been definite elements of demonisation in the UK with parties like the EDL, particularly against people of the muslim faith in recent years.

Some might say this was also present with the UK's decision to send troops to Afganistan in so called war on Terror, which I was not comfortable with.
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Like demonizing the poor, the refugees, the train workers, the doctors of this country?

Just like is happening from our current government, is this what you are referring to?

A massive fire is born from a tiny match. Divide conquer and consolidate, that is what is happening right now in this country.

I can agree to an extent that labeling the current state Nazi-like is hyperbolic, but we are seeing fascist-like policies and rhetoric ever-increasingly from the party in power, as I have said many times on this thread, it can happen anywhere and if we fail to oust Johnson in the next GE and he survives leadership bids in his own party, what trajectory do you think we are on? We are on a slippery road and we should all be mindful and aware.
 
Don't think you really understand where I am coming from. You keep talking about 2 sides. There are lots and lots of sides.

You are looking at it so narrowly. I don't think that labour voters are as bad as Tory voters as I don't see them as two sides. People as a whole are polarised. This is not a line with Tories (Nazis) on one side and labour on the other.

Pointless debate anyway. You don't think it's an act of polarisation to say Tories are Nazis because you think they are Nazis.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Don't think you really understand where I am coming from. You keep talking about 2 sides. There are lots and lots of sides.

You are looking at it so narrowly. I don't think that labour voters are as bad as Tory voters as I don't see them as two sides. People as a whole are polarised. This is not a line with Tories (Nazis) on one side and labour on the other.

Pointless debate anyway. You don't think it's an act of polarisation to say Tories are Nazis because you think they are Nazis.
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Fascists. I'm aay8ng they are fascists not Nazis. Because they are Executing fascist policies and behaviours
 
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