No to Sam Greenwood

Muttley said:
Perhaps the performance of Law McCabe may have played into that? Perhaps Hackney has given a commitment? I liked O'Brien and thought he did well after being initially unimpressive.
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I think McCabe is a prospect. Needs to add a bit of physicality, which given his age is perfectly feasible. To be fair to O'Brien he was well out of position initially at left back, and after breaking his ankle, well...he had a broken ankle.
 
I wish him all the best for the future but I can't deny that I'm pleased we've chosen not to sign him.

I had some sympathy for him, in the sense that he was never given a run of games playing as a 10 (his natural role in my opinion) but his decision making let him down time and time again. He'd often run himself into trouble and would get knocked off the ball too easily at times.
 
TeaCider said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1788515562370257191

No Thomas or O'Brien either.

Thomas is obvious, he was only playing because of injuries and he was poor for most of his time here.

I'd guess O'Brien is more because of the money involved.
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I think O'Brien was competent, but he didn't really create a lot, or offer a great defensive shield. For the wages, you would want a lot more from him. A bit like Mowatt the year before, perfectly competent, doesn't give the ball away, works hard, but lacks a little something in decision making, technical ability, and desire/character.

Greenwood, has ability, clearly, works hard too, it's a decision making issue with him, and a personality thing. He seems really stroppy on the pitch, which exacerbates his already poor decision making. At some point he'll find the right club at the right time and fulfill his promise, but that could be 3 or 4 years away, and I'm not sure that timeline suits us. It's a 3 year investment to really get him up to where he could be.
 
I would have signed Greenwood on Championship wages for £1.5m at Xmas.

Second half of the season he did struggle. He may improve as he is pretty young, but as we stand now its probably best to invest elsewhere. We have found some interesting Mainland European based players recently who generally are cheaper both in wages and fees. Plus we have under 21s challenging on relatively low wages and will potential to develop a lot.

O'Brien and Thomas will be on top end Championship money (£30k to £40k per week) so they would have to take some pay cut to come to us and there are fees probably above £1.5m, more like £3m each. They both would be decent squad players, but not first 11 for me and too expensive for the next tier. In Thomas case we have two left backs, so one would have to be sold to bring him in. I would loan O'Brien again if that option was open.
 
Bottom line is I trust Carrick and coaching staff's judgement. They've had more than a good enough look at him. If they'd thought he was worth keeping and likely to kick on, then I'd have been behind it.

There's more to a decision like that than just the 90 mins on a match day. Based on that alone it's the right decision, but if he'd shown an outstanding attitude in training, improvement in areas of his game he needed to work and signs that it wasn't far off clicking for him, we might have been tempted. Suggests he's not done enough off the pitch either.
 
Forest paid about £8m for O'Brien and Forest would have to take a hit on his value now, but would still probably want close to £5m for him and top end Championship wages and his value isn't likely to increase much in the future. In my opinion he isn't good value for a club in our position and doesn't appear to fit with the transfer policies of the club last Summer or January.
 
I think our midfield should be a proper DM and a box-to-box to be most effective. Howson plays the DM well but we could replace him with someone with a bit more bite and then the box-to-box Hackney is great at and hopefully he'll be there and fit next year. O'Brien doesn't really suit either of those roles and definitely not as 1st choice. If we lost Hackney we would have more money to buy a more suited player than O'Brien and I just don't think it make f inancial sense to have such an expensive player to cover multiple positions sub-optimally.
 
With O'Brien I think it may also be a question of whether to invest in a player who has had quite a serious injury and they may worry about the risk of reinjury. He has done well since coming back, but if the wages and and fee are high then it may be seen as a risk if there are other players available. I supect O'Brien would command a fee, ie. it's not quite a Duncan Watmore situation when he arrived under Warnock.
 
Said it on here a few times, I've followed Greenwood's career since he was early teens, he was prolific as a '9' for the Mackems, probably considered one of the brightest english talents, so much so Arsenal nicked from him Sunderland at 16. After a few months they moved him back to a '10', said he lacked the pace & physicality to be a '9' and for me they are absolutely correct. He didn't settle well in the smoke and there were constant issues around his 'attitude'. As a result he went to Leeds at 18 and signed a pro contract. They played him as a '10' in there U18's/U21's and he was fairly successful. Bielsa came along seen his technichal ability and work ethic and felt he would be best suited to a wide 8 in his system, tbf to Greenwood he took his opportunity and did fairly well. Problem is I believe it's left him confused, he thinks like a striker, his first thought is how can I score? So when played in more creative 8/10 roles he makes poor decisions, also when played as a wide 8 as we have done in the main, he often leaves his full back with no protection.

O'Brien - he played his best football at Huddersfield as a left sided 8 in a midfield 3 in a team who largely played counter attacking football, he's great at driving forward at pace and joining the front players. Boro don't play like that in general, so his major strengths are lost. He had his best game in a Boro shirt away at Leicester, we sat in with a back 5 and played on the counter he played slightly ahead of Howson and broke at every opportunity, suited him down to the ground.

Greenwood I think will end up at Hull, he's their kind of signing, O'Brien I'm not sure, more & more teams are playing a possession based game even in the Championship, his style doesn't real suit it and his wages will be premier league level, with still a couple of years on his contract, he might just kick his heels at Forest for a season and move one next season.
 
festa5 said:
Bottom line is I trust Carrick and coaching staff's judgement. They've had more than a good enough look at him. If they'd thought he was worth keeping and likely to kick on, then I'd have been behind it.

There's more to a decision like that than just the 90 mins on a match day. Based on that alone it's the right decision, but if he'd shown an outstanding attitude in training, improvement in areas of his game he needed to work and signs that it wasn't far off clicking for him, we might have been tempted. Suggests he's not done enough off the pitch either.
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i see this as a good sign not pursuing anyone but ayling it shows ambition and ruthlessness, the club clearly think they have better options to procure.
 
Glover_elbow said:
i see this as a good sign not pursuing anyone but ayling it shows ambition and ruthlessness, the club clearly think they have better options to procure.
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Agreed but it's also quite measured which I like.

We won't always get it right, that's football. But we've given all of them a fair chance so it's a decision made based on a lot of information.

We just seem a lot more thorough these days.
 
I think Greenwood has ability, and could go on to be a top player, but I'm sorry to say that I don't think he will.

The polar opposite of playing with a smile on your face; always appearing to be angry and sulky. Anonymous for long periods of the game, then capable of a stupid foul.

Good dead ball ability though.

I wish him the best and wouldn't be at all sad if he, proves me wrong and, comes good.
 
Thank you Sam for Sunderland away and that magnificent free kick against Leicester, wish you well in your career but as previously stated definitely not done enough to warrant a contract.
 
Canyoudigit said:
Thank you Sam for Sunderland away and that magnificent free kick against Leicester, wish you well in your career but as previously stated definitely not done enough to warrant a contract.
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Was a great free kick, mind…
 
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