Wow. Latest Hartlepool polling...
- Thread starter InglebyUTB
- Start date
BoroMart
Well-known member
that isn't disrespecting the result it's offering a pragmatic approach to solve the mess the Tories made, like I said the tories stating as a fact that no one is talking about leaving the single market, to then push forward in leaving the single market, that is the disrespecting of the referendum, would you not agree?
Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer calls for EU referendum as only way forward
Shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer has insisted a second Brexit referendum is needed to break the political deadlock.inews.co.uk
BoroMart
Well-known member
David Cameron was on the remain side, as you are aware. The people that led the vote leave campaign clearly stated, multiple times that no one was talking about leaving the single market. It was their campaign.
Cameron was telling you that they were lying......he was bloody right as well.
r00fie1
Well-known member
Add this: [your comment]
"Incredible that nationalising infrastructure & using government money to support local industry is a popular policy."
.....and understand my reply, which points out its been Tory policy since the year dot - ie. it contradicts the preferred media narrative and popular myth.
Strange comment: the Tory government(s) have constantly franchised then Nationalised the East Coast Main Line.
They`ve also Nationalised Northern Rail.
They`ve subsidised franchises by billions every year since the railways were handed out to foreign state-owned railway companies and private global corporations.
Cant beat the Tory`s to hand out favours to their mates and subsidise their ideological failures with our money.
"Incredible that nationalising infrastructure & using government money to support local industry is a popular policy."
.....and understand my reply, which points out its been Tory policy since the year dot - ie. it contradicts the preferred media narrative and popular myth.
Strange comment: the Tory government(s) have constantly franchised then Nationalised the East Coast Main Line.
They`ve also Nationalised Northern Rail.
They`ve subsidised franchises by billions every year since the railways were handed out to foreign state-owned railway companies and private global corporations.
Cant beat the Tory`s to hand out favours to their mates and subsidise their ideological failures with our money.
BoroMart
Well-known member
agreed he was, this was infighting by the elite for more control and power.
The public should have stayed clear of it and put Corbyn in if they wanted to give the elite a bloody good shoeing, it's pretty obvious
r00fie1
Well-known member
See my answer above. I cant tell what question you are asking with your cartoon.
Thanks.
Archiestephens_elbow
Well-known member
Ben houchen is a gobshiiestrangely though, you ask them what they voted for and you get word salad back. 'political weeds', that's just another way of having no real understanding of politics and the consequences of decisions.
It has needed it, yet the Tories have brought a handful of jobs so far, promises of more, but we've seen Tory promises fall flat before. We all know the promised jobs will largely not happen, the tories promise one thing, and deliver something else, a la brexit.
dorivasmiddlefinger
Well-known member
People on here still adamant Labour should have backed remain ffs. You people are a huge problem, reading this thread and reading those comments makes even me not want to vote Labour. You're absolutely crazy! It's delusional utterly beyond belief.
The future is very bleak imo. There isn't a firebrand. No one to speak up and shout about what regular people want. I don't feel represented as someone from Middlesbrough. I feel the way about Starmer the same way people felt about Corbyn. Not keen from the very start and unlikely to change my opinion. He's a temporary leader.
There isn't a party out there for me and i imagine a lot of people feel the same.
The future is very bleak imo. There isn't a firebrand. No one to speak up and shout about what regular people want. I don't feel represented as someone from Middlesbrough. I feel the way about Starmer the same way people felt about Corbyn. Not keen from the very start and unlikely to change my opinion. He's a temporary leader.
There isn't a party out there for me and i imagine a lot of people feel the same.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
It’s an unbelievable mess and the current Johnson policy is money for votes via the likes of Ben Houchen.
Economic prudence which the Tories have always sold themselves on has gone out of the window as if it never existed. The bare cupboard is suddenly full of money.
Labour are better off out of it until we see what the aftermath of Brexit and the Tory’s Covid spending spree is.
The Hartlepool result is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things, Johnson is a con man on an industrial scale.
Scrote
Well-known member
He said he was about 70% in favour of remain and was castigated for it.
He didn't lie. His position was more nuanced than we're used to party leaders being. It was a different approach and it was too much for some people to comprehend.
Scrote
Well-known member
But they wouldn't have gone to the Tories either.
The Brexit Party stood in Hartlepool to take votes off Labour. The electoral pact between them and the Tories was based on standing in areas where the Brexit vote was working class and red. There are (were?) plenty of Brexiters in the area who will never vote Tory.
Labour still won.
People want leaders who are clear, decisive, unequivocal and unambiguous. Saying something like Corbyn did may be honest but it's just never going to cut it.
BoroMart
Well-known member
Is that what they've told you!
BoroMart
Well-known member
funny that because pretty much everything that Johnson has said has been ambiguous, unclear, and he has so many u-turns on his record that he isn't decisive.
What grips my chocolate log is all this pontification about how labour should be held to a certain standard by people that don't hold the Tories to those same standards....if people did then they would never ever get in power above Labour.
So the real unanswered question is why do the general public allow the Tories greater scope for abuse of power, lies, deceit, corruption, economic failure, social demolition, and poverty creation than they do labour? It can't just be that the tories are better at obfuscation can it?
Last edited:
Nobby_Barnes
Well-known member
Marty you've now made over 5,000 posts on this messageboard, half of which have been on this thread. I'd like you to spend some time away from the board and go on a very long bike ride tomorrow....perhaps Lands End to John O' Groats
coluka
Well-known member
Thats not quite what I am saying Stu. I am saying the people in or around the centre ground are the people that generally decide the outcome of elections. Most people imho are bothered about their own lives and prosperity predominantly. Issues such as: Income, not being worse off, lower taxation, job security, cost of living (food, housing, holiday affordability, council tax etc), NHS, Kids education, national security, policing and lower crime rates. Around 2/3rds of families own their homes and want low interest rates, enjoy the odd social occasions with friends and partners. Many people don’t like change unless they can envisage their lives will be improved and at worst stay on an even keel.
The reality (imho) is the majority of Joe public who are employed are bothered about the potential costs to them in creating a so called fairer society, how achievable it really is and the costs involved. Many will probably be concerned that higher taxation (direct and indirect) would be needed. People are generally selfish, some more so than others. Peoples aspirations are personal, life chances vary considerably and would always be that way. You get out of life what you put into it. Unfortunately for some, that lesson isn’t learned till it is too late if learned at all. Sadly, minority of parents do not have the life experience, life skills, education, will, drive to raise their children in a way that gives them the best chance to succeed.
Many people still don’t vote in General elections, anecdotally this seems to be more likely those who feel their lives are what they are and feel their vote affects nothing anyway. The electoral system unfortunately reinforces this for me. I would love to scrap first past the post for a PR system. Neither Labour or Tories will ever support that though. Brexit was wrongly hijacked by the right and unfortunately used to persuade the less well off and less educated in some red wall areas (who Labour and Tories alike have also let down when in power) an opportunity to rebel knowing their vote counted and they could really bring about a major change. As a marginal brexit voter myself, i agree vote leave lied and played on the less well off promising change and were sadly not focussing appropriately. Vote remain lied too, but they used fear as a weapon and (i generalise here) remain was often seen as the choice of the establishment, the well off and the middle classes, by those feeling left behind, an opportunity to kick the establishment was in their sights. The nuances of the rights and wrongs of either way were not fairly argued, reasoned and explained by either side. Cameron thought remain would easily win so never put the hard yards in. I am educated enough to see both sides and evaluate, unfortunately politicians of all colours should hang their heads low, non more so than Cameron himself for calling it.
I fear the vaccination and furlough programmes will mask all the failures of the tories, and as people will be glad to get some semblance of their life back, the mess, mishandling, financial waste and deaths will not be seen for the crime it actually was. Starmer can’t win for now, he can not change anything. Labour has no power. If he talks about policy now, it will be mostly hot air. The state of the economy means he has no idea of what is affordable and achievable and realistic come 2024. He can’t make promises now that he can’t deliver In 2024. The aim has to be to persuade those that voted tory will be somewhat better off under Labour, no worse off at least. Education, Jobs, Housing, Crime, low taxation and low to moderate inflation are important to most people. While people are bothered about the planet, green policies etc, they don’t want to pay for them. We are a services based economy primarily and globalisation makes it hard to tax the huge conglomerates like Amazon et al. Governments find it easier to tax its people. The rich will just f*** off like Dyson did and the more that happens, the more the burden falls on the ordinary man.
IMHO, history tells me the nation struggles to trust a Labour government on the economy and unfortunately relates change to old Labour policies as increased spending and taxation on themselves. Blair managed to sell hope that was affordable, he was a visionary in selling his message of improved public services, education and ditching of old Labour. His energy and ideas were new, vibrant and appealing across the political divide. His first spell delivered, unfortunately his second led to distrust and he lost his way, power always corrupts.
I strongly feel that Labour has to win power by persuading large swathes of England in particular that it is now bought into Brexit, can be trusted across the political divide, wont increase direct taxes on the ordinary average man on the clapham omnibus, nor cause indirect taxation to be significantly raised. Radical changes like those Corbyn proposed (many of which i agreed with in part) were seen as unaffordable without significantly increased taxation on everyone. He as a leader was not seen as credible and was mistrusted by many, even those in his own party. People will always vote for the status quo if they do not buy in to the leader of the opposition personally. Personalities count, leaders possessing charisma will more likely be followed, even when it is foolhardy to do so sadly. Manifestos need to be realistic, seen as fair, achievable, costed and then be delivered to the letter.
Just my opinion, I may be wrong, I often am, but to win power is everything, otherwise your policies are pointless. People need to be persuaded by more than aspirational idealisms, especially as the average human does not like to much change. Trust is important, but where trust on either side is doubted, the status quo usually wins imho. I think most people occupy the centre-ish ground of politics in the UK hence why radical change no matter how aspirational and appealing, is a pipe dream in truth as we all muddle along in our own variation of selfishness.
Sorry for the length of the post
InglebyUTB
Well-known member
I'm sure this will bring those Labour voters flooding back.
Voters have no excuses this time for not voting how we expect them to
Voters have no excuses this time for not voting how we expect them to
Johnson was the leader of the Brexit campaign. That was unequivocal.
Then it was getting Brexit done.
Then it was supporting people in the pandemic.
Then it was getting jabs in arms.
It's simple stuff, but people understand it and and it's clearly resonating with the English public.
There's no way Boris would get such an easy ride here in Scotland. What is striking though is that Labour look all at sea over everything. I see nothing to make me think Labour is a realistic option.
Nobby_Barnes
Well-known member
Well there's nothing more to say other than VOTE COLUKAThats not quite what I am saying Stu. I am saying the people in or around the centre ground are the people that generally decide the outcome of elections. Most people imho are bothered about their own lives and prosperity predominantly. Issues such as: Income, not being worse off, lower taxation, job security, cost of living (food, housing, holiday affordability, council tax etc), NHS, Kids education, national security, policing and lower crime rates. Around 2/3rds of families own their homes and want low interest rates, enjoy the odd social occasions with friends and partners. Many people don’t like change unless they can envisage their lives will be improved and at worst stay on an even keel.
The reality (imho) is the majority of Joe public who are employed are bothered about the potential costs to them in creating a so called fairer society, how achievable it really is and the costs involved. Many will probably be concerned that higher taxation (direct and indirect) would be needed. People are generally selfish, some more so than others. Peoples aspirations are personal, life chances vary considerably and would always be that way. You get out of life what you put into it. Unfortunately for some, that lesson isn’t learned till it is too late if learned at all. Sadly, minority of parents do not have the life experience, life skills, education, will, drive to raise their children in a way that gives them the best chance to succeed.
Many people still don’t vote in General elections, anecdotally this seems to be more likely those who feel their lives are what they are and feel their vote affects nothing anyway. The electoral system unfortunately reinforces this for me. I would love to scrap first past the post for a PR system. Neither Labour or Tories will ever support that though. Brexit was wrongly hijacked by the right and unfortunately used to persuade the less well off and less educated in some red wall areas (who Labour and Tories alike have also let down when in power) an opportunity to rebel knowing their vote counted and they could really bring about a major change. As a marginal brexit voter myself, i agree vote leave lied and played on the less well off promising change and were sadly not focussing appropriately. Vote remain lied too, but they used fear as a weapon and (i generalise here) remain was often seen as the choice of the establishment, the well off and the middle classes, by those feeling left behind, an opportunity to kick the establishment was in their sights. The nuances of the rights and wrongs of either way were not fairly argued, reasoned and explained by either side. Cameron thought remain would easily win so never put the hard yards in. I am educated enough to see both sides and evaluate, unfortunately politicians of all colours should hang their heads low, non more so than Cameron himself for calling it.
I fear the vaccination and furlough programmes will mask all the failures of the tories, and as people will be glad to get some semblance of their life back, the mess, mishandling, financial waste and deaths will not be seen for the crime it actually was. Starmer can’t win for now, he can not change anything. Labour has no power. If he talks about policy now, it will be mostly hot air. The state of the economy means he has no idea of what is affordable and achievable and realistic come 2024. He can’t make promises now that he can’t deliver In 2024. The aim has to be to persuade those that voted tory will be somewhat better off under Labour, no worse off at least. Education, Jobs, Housing, Crime, low taxation and low to moderate inflation are important to most people. While people are bothered about the planet, green policies etc, they don’t want to pay for them. We are a services based economy primarily and globalisation makes it hard to tax the huge conglomerates like Amazon et al. Governments find it easier to tax its people. The rich will just f*** off like Dyson did and the more that happens, the more the burden falls on the ordinary man.
IMHO, history tells me the nation struggles to trust a Labour government on the economy and unfortunately relates change to old Labour policies as increased spending and taxation on themselves. Blair managed to sell hope that was affordable, he was a visionary in selling his message of improved public services, education and ditching of old Labour. His energy and ideas were new, vibrant and appealing across the political divide. His first spell delivered, unfortunately his second led to distrust and he lost his way, power always corrupts.
I strongly feel that Labour has to win power by persuading large swathes of England in particular that it is now bought into Brexit, can be trusted across the political divide, wont increase direct taxes on the ordinary average man on the clapham omnibus, nor cause indirect taxation to be significantly raised. Radical changes like those Corbyn proposed (many of which i agreed with in part) were seen as unaffordable without significantly increased taxation on everyone. He as a leader was not seen as credible and was mistrusted by many, even those in his own party. People will always vote for the status quo if they do not buy in to the leader of the opposition personally. Personalities count, leaders possessing charisma will more likely be followed, even when it is foolhardy to do so sadly. Manifestos need to be realistic, seen as fair, achievable, costed and then be delivered to the letter.
Just my opinion, I may be wrong, I often am, but to win power is everything, otherwise your policies are pointless. People need to be persuaded by more than aspirational idealisms, especially as the average human does not like to much change. Trust is important, but where trust on either side is doubted, the status quo usually wins imho. I think most people occupy the centre-ish ground of politics in the UK hence why radical change no matter how aspirational and appealing, is a pipe dream in truth as we all muddle along in our own variation of selfishness.
Sorry for the length of the post
