Wow. Latest Hartlepool polling...

BoroMart said:
They fought for keeping the single market access, which, as already stated, vote leave had repeatedly stated they would keep. If anything it was the Tory rightwing hard brexiteers that didn't respect the referendum by stealing the votes of people that were told expected, and were not given single market access, 350mill for the NHS every week, better trade deals around the world etc.
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David Cameron told people clearly "a vote to leave the European Union is a vote to leave the single market and the customs union"
 
In fairness I would rather spend more time in Cayman as opposed to Hartlepool. Seven Mile Beach ticks the boxes!
 
WeeGord said:
It was declared project fear by the Leave campaign
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The then and current PM both said it meant leaving the single market.

You can argue as much as you want, but Brexit and the second referendum cost Labour dearly at the ballot box in the North and the loss of trust with voters will probably cost us tomorrow.

fullfact.org

What was promised about the customs union before the referendum? - Full Fact

Campaigners weren’t explicit about what Brexit would mean for the customs union before the referendum.
fullfact.org fullfact.org
 
InglebyUTB said:
The then and current PM both said it meant leaving the single market.

You can argue as much as you want, but Brexit and the second referendum cost Labour dearly at the ballot box in the North and the loss of trust with voters will probably cost us tomorrow.

fullfact.org

What was promised about the customs union before the referendum? - Full Fact

Campaigners weren’t explicit about what Brexit would mean for the customs union before the referendum.
fullfact.org fullfact.org
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I'm not denying that Brexit cost Labour dearly, but to suggest that voting Brexit meant leaving the single market and customs union etc was largely understood by the public is wrong. There were many in the Leave camp who were trying to suggest we would retain all the benefits we currently had but could do away with Johnny Foreigner stealing our jobs and NHS resources whilst putting £350m per week towards the NHS.

It was a monstrous lie and purposely presented as something it was never going to be. Had the reality of Brexit been presented there is no way whatsoever it would have won the vote.
 
coluka said:
He appeals to me. Labour only has itself to blame, mainly under Corbyn. Britain is predominantly centrist not leftist, like it or not, it is true. Tories or Blairites is where the power lay. I am a Blairite, power is everything in politics. Look after the centre ground to change the future or you will get more tory governments, it is really quite simple.
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Col I always enjoy our chats about this. You make me wonder how you can be so certain that this is the case. You don't seem to have any doubts about the electoral strength of centrism.

Corbyn's Labour won Hartlepool twice. In 2017 he massively increased the Labour vote and they got 50+% in Hartlepool. Now we've had a centrist Labour leader for over a year, he's booted Corbyn out the party, told the left to p*ss off and ditched all the policies. If tomorrow goes the way it's looking Starmer will lose Hartlepool. And yet somehow for you this just proves that Corbyn and left wing politics are unelectable and that Starmer and centrism are the way forward? How?

MoggasDog said:
How any trade unionists or socialists can argue against the EU totally escapes me.
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Well the EU isn't a socialist organisation is it? It's been influenced by it's member countries governments, the majority of which have leaned centre right for decades. Look at the way it slapped down Greece's attempt to elect a socialist government.

In any case I don't think the 'Lexit' vote is a particularly big cohort anyway. But I don't think it's difficult to see the logic of it.
 
MoggasDog said:
SNPs, LibDems would have supported a coalition and they would have got in.
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Not a chance they would btw.

If they cared about remain as much as they pretended to, they'd have backed the offer from Labour to have a temporary coalition government set up a second referendum. In reality it was a useful wedge issue to try and grow their own support. Nothing more.
 
InglebyUTB said:
David Cameron told people clearly "a vote to leave the European Union is a vote to leave the single market and the customs union"
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When defining a position, the starting point should be from what the proponent says, not the opponent. The opponent should be knocking holes in that position.

With Brexit, it was the Leave campaigns who suggested that nobody was talking about leaving the Single Market. Hannan, Farage and Johnson all suggested it would be a similar new position as Norway. Cameron looked at the promises, the contradictory promises and correctly predicted leaving the EU would mean leaving the Single Market, because the Leave campaign was all about stopping free movement of labour. The Leave campaigns were dishonest. About 35% of Leave voters did get what they voted for, the rest were duped.

It is a measure of the success of the Leave campaigns that in addition to being able to persuade millions to vote for their own contradictory and incompatible versions of Leave while at the same time actually defining a lot of the positions of their opponents. Remain did not actually use any of the so called 'project fear' statements ascribed to them. It was Leave campaigners who said 'they tell us blah blah blah..' but there isn't actually any evidence any Remainers or the experts cited said any such thing. Great tactics a supine media allowed them to get away with and a gullible public swallowed hook line and sinker, because it chimed with their bias and prejudice.
 
Lefty said:
Remain did not actually use any of the so called 'project fear' statements ascribed to them. It was Leave campaigners who said 'they tell us blah blah blah..' but there isn't actually any evidence any Remainers or the experts cited said any such thing.
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That's a funny thing to say Lefty. Not my recollection at all. You can claim it wasn't "project fear" and that actually they were all good faith warnings or whatever but odd to say no remainers actually said voting leave would lead to negative outcomes.

Off the top of my head, here's Osborne telling the country we'd need an emergency slash and tax budget just if people voted leave in the referendum, not even when Brexit actually happened. If I remember right, the emergency budget didn't actually happen after the fact so I think it's relatively understandable when people started to write off the threats as project fear. It's a boy who cried wolf thing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192
 
coluka said:
He appeals to me. Labour only has itself to blame, mainly under Corbyn. Britain is predominantly centrist not leftist, like it or not, it is true. Tories or Blairites is where the power lay. I am a Blairite, power is everything in politics. Look after the centre ground to change the future or you will get more tory governments, it is really quite simple.
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There are very few votes in the centre, as demonstrated by ChangeUK and the Lib Dems getting destroyed at the last election.
 
SuperStu said:
That's a funny thing to say Lefty. Not my recollection at all. You can claim it wasn't "project fear" and that actually they were all good faith warnings or whatever but odd to say no remainers actually said voting leave would lead to negative outcomes.

Off the top of my head, here's Osborne telling the country we'd need an emergency slash and tax budget just if people voted leave in the referendum, not even when Brexit actually happened. If I remember right, the emergency budget didn't actually happen after the fact so I think it's relatively understandable when people started to write off the threats as project fear. It's a boy who cried wolf thing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192
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In the BBC R4 interview in the link he is talking about if "we quit the EU" but we didn't quit, we left with a deal.
 
InglebyUTB said:
So you say, then dispute the numbers who voted for it, highlight those who did not vote, etc.

Here is one for you.

If policy is irrelevant and all that matters is people's previous support or opposition to Brexit (as you previously stated), then why did Labour present a seat with a massive Brexit majority with a short list of one candidate who is well known for losing his seat due to his support for Remain and a People's Vote?
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I see your still struggling with my earlier post, theres no dispute on numbers by me, your the one who couldn't grasp the figures.
Do you still think the majority of his constituents voted leave?
Why did they put Williams in?
Because he's a decent fella, and a GP working in the town with first hand experience of the area.
Their mistake was underestimating the cult of brexit.
 
jam69 said:
I see your still struggling with my earlier post, theres no dispute on numbers by me, your the one who couldn't grasp the figures.
Do you still think the majority of his constituents voted leave?
Why did they put Williams in?
Because he's a decent fella, and a GP working in the town with first hand experience of the area.
Their mistake was underestimating the cult of brexit.
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They underestimated Brexit in an area that voted 70% to leave:ROFLMAO:

These people should be not be running a political party.
 
InglebyUTB said:
Expectations are being lowered

https://twitter.com/x/status/1389940347812388865
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I don't know anything about the West Midlands Mayor, but I don't think Labour would have a cat in hell's chance of ousting Ben Houchen even if they were doing well right now.

He's very popular and it's clear that he's been campaigning on the personal vote and with anti-Labour rhetoric lately rather than linking himself to the Conservatives.

But there is absolutely no way that losing Hartlepool can be spun as anything but a colossal failure by Labour.
They obviously only held it last time because of vote splitting, but it doesn't make it any less of a failure to lose it this time.
 
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