Will Tory @#×@ get the message from voters ?

masquesmog said:
this .....

Johnson MAY have self destructed anyway - he normally did - but Starmer in PMQs helped and accelerated setting him up. Johnson couldn't cope with him at the despatch box.

Reading the Seldon book, all obvious etc .... apart from that Seldon was a Johnson fan in the past
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fortunately only the 2nd worst pm in my lifetime .....
 
Laughing said:
He didn't get lucky with the implosion of the tories, he directly caused it.
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He obviously didn't cause it. He didn't plan the lockdown parties, buy the winefridge, take the photos, film them dancing did he? You can say he exploited it well but plainly ridiculous to somehow think that means he caused it.

Look at it this way. Don't you think people would still have been annoyed about those tory parties even if Starmer hadn't asked Boris about them in PMQs? Reread @Boroboyyo's post #67.

Boroboyyo said:
I will never forgive Johnson for taking the **** during Christmas while my wife was denied the chance to see her dad for his last Christmas as we followed the rules strictly before eventually he succumbed to pulmonary embolism caused by covid .
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You don't really think the bit that sticks in the craw is what Boris said in PMQs do you? Very few people watch it! Certainly not enough to explain the dramatic shift in polling. The story itself is what damaged them.
 
SuperStu said:
He obviously didn't cause it. He didn't plan the lockdown parties, buy the winefridge, take the photos, film them dancing did he? You can say he exploited it well but plainly ridiculous to somehow think that means he caused it.

Look at it this way. Don't you think people would still have been annoyed about those tory parties even if Starmer hadn't asked Boris about them in PMQs? Reread @Boroboyyo's post #67.



You don't really think the bit that sticks in the craw is what Boris said in PMQs do you? Very few people watch it! Certainly not enough to explain the dramatic shift in polling. The story itself is what damaged them.
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As I said, little point discussing it with someone who can't see anything positive about Starmer.

You managed to miss the entire point. It wasn't that Johnson had parties. It was that he lied about them. Without the corect questioning, he wouldn't have had to lie, then lie again, and again.

Nothing against you or anyone else that dislikes Starmer, not keen myself, but the level of debate on this subject is ridiculous. It's even poor from the Starmer supporters. It goes round in circles with the same stuff repeated over and over.

I explained my thoughts on Starmer and haven't heard a decent counter argument.
 
I know I'm going to regret posting his comment, and I have very strong political leanings myself......

But, ........

Is calling supporters of one of the opposing UK political parties 'SCUM' really constructive to anyone's narrative?

Surely we are better than that, no? The politics of hate are a race to the bottom.

Big love to one and all and Up the Boro 👍
 
Laughing said:
You managed to miss the entire point. It wasn't that Johnson had parties. It was that he lied about them.
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I don't think so. Boris has lied constantly throughout his career. If people were going to be outraged by him lying about something he'd have never been PM in the first place.

It was that he had parties. I know that's not as fun cause you don't get to credit Starmer for it but thats the realty. As per Boroboyyo's post, most all of us obeyed the rules that Johnson's government set and it was f*cking rubbish. People had to cancel holidays and christmas plans, miss funerals or childbirths, postpone their weddings, lose jobs, all kinds of heartache. And then it turned out the tories were having nightly shindigs in the number 10 garden.

Look at it this way then. If Starmer had asked those questions in PMQs, and Boris had given those answers... but it had turned out that there were no parties. No stupid pictures of tory staffers in their work kitchen in christmas jumpers. Do you still think there'd have been outrage? Obviously not. Because a couple of PMQs haven't completely swung public opinion, the parties themselves having happened did.
 
Laughing said:
As I said, little point discussing it with someone who can't see anything positive about Starmer.
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Don't call it a cult 😜 the only people worth talking to are those who see positives in Starmer? Is that really what you're saying?

For what its worth, if the dear leader absolutely must be praised by all, he sure runs a tight ship. Who knows what he's done to the SCG but they've clearly all been terrified of him throughout. I wish he was a left winger!
 
weemoby said:
Is calling supporters of one of the opposing UK political parties 'SCUM' really constructive to anyone's narrative?
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The OP seems to be more aimed at the MPs than supporters. Isn't the point that they've clearly lost the publics support and confidence and therefore the honourable and democratic thing to do would be to call an election?

And their MPs are scum to be quite honest. The sewage in the rivers, the Uganda deportations, putting covid into carehomes, the anti protest legislation... and that's just the fairly recent stuff. Cameron had 100k+ unnecessary deaths just by starving benefits claimants. And for nothing - the austerity experiment failed. It doesn't work. There's nothing you could call them that would be harsher than they deserve.
 
The most politically cynical trick, if it can pulled off by the client press, is to convince the people that all parties are equally bad as the other.
They seem to be winning at the moment.
 
SuperStu said:
I don't think so. Boris has lied constantly throughout his career. If people were going to be outraged by him lying about something he'd have never been PM in the first place.

It was that he had parties. I know that's not as fun cause you don't get to credit Starmer for it but thats the realty. As per Boroboyyo's post, most all of us obeyed the rules that Johnson's government set and it was f*cking rubbish. People had to cancel holidays and christmas plans, miss funerals or childbirths, postpone their weddings, lose jobs, all kinds of heartache. And then it turned out the tories were having nightly shindigs in the number 10 garden.

Look at it this way then. If Starmer had asked those questions in PMQs, and Boris had given those answers... but it had turned out that there were no parties. No stupid pictures of tory staffers in their work kitchen in christmas jumpers. Do you still think there'd have been outrage? Obviously not. Because a couple of PMQs haven't completely swung public opinion, the parties themselves having happened did.
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Johnson is out because he lied to parliament and his own party. Public opinion has gone against the Tories because they have been incompetent.
 
SuperStu said:
Don't call it a cult 😜 the only people worth talking to are those who see positives in Starmer? Is that really what you're saying?

For what its worth, if the dear leader absolutely must be praised by all, he sure runs a tight ship. Who knows what he's done to the SCG but they've clearly all been terrified of him throughout. I wish he was a left winger!
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To answer both posts in one.

Johnson being a liar wasn't the issue you are right. He always lied just not to parliament. That's why he was deposed and ultimately left politics. This all happened in an environment where the ethics committee were handcuffed. It wouldn't have happened without starmer.

On your second point. No it's not I favour one set of views over another, positive or negative. I have my own views which I made clear. What frustrated me is the same argument repeated over and over again. The argument that labour are just tory lite is stupid in the extreme as is the unfounded he will move left after he wins am election. This argument in itself is equally dumb. That's the two sides of the debate that has been covered in hundreds of posts, over and over again on here.

Now I don't know, but I have evidence to suggest the following.

Strarmer had ordered the party to toe a line when interviewed. They cannot agree to spending a penny where they cannot identify a source for the money. They have announced an end to non dom status and spent that money already. They have announced vat on private education and spent that money. They have announced a windfall tax on gas and oil and spent that. Where does other spending come from? If he can't clearly articulate that without the press hanging him out to dry, the party say they have no plans for that. It's the right thing to do if you want to win an election. This is why he rowed back on taking some industries back into public control. It is the right thing to do to win an election.

So will he move more to the left after winning next year? Not immediately no. He has already announced closer ties with the EU. That will grow the economy and give us more to spend on the NHS and other services. He cannot abound that as a plan because the press will destroy him. Unfunded spending, he is going to raise taxes or borrow. The media will hang him.

He is the first labour leader since Blair to actually politic. Corbyn had no idea and as much as I liked him he would have gone on to loose as many elections as he was leader for. He was toxic to the party because he was easy to smear.

Now I don't know if what I have said is true, but if you are prepared to listen to what he says disspassionately with a view on winning an election it could very well be true. It's pointless making these arguments on here because whilst many will agree with me their are a vocal handful that will hijack the thread and off we go again.

As I have said a couple of times, nothing against you or others who don't agree with me. It's just pointless arguing with folks who are not prepared to soften their approach and actually listen.
 
SuperStu said:
Does it? Yvette Coopers been careful to keep her criticism specific to tory inefficiency processing asylum claims. Don't hold your breath.
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That's scaremongering rubbish.

She has always stated that we should be working night and day to get a better joint plan with France to crack down on the gangs and to stop the boats being put into the water in the first place.
 
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