Where would you place the current Labour Party on Left to Right spectrum?

Redwurzel said:
If Corbyn/McDonald was solid Left Centre - Blair was Center Right - Callaghan/Wilson were Centre Right Left

Where would you place Starmer?
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Starmer - or as he is known these days 'Sir Kid Starver' is Right - a long way away from the centre of the LP much further away than Blair - however that shows just how mis-aligned these Islands are after a Brexit and 13 years of the Tories & 5 failed useless tory PMs.

One thing about tory politicians and governments is that they look after their own class - most labour MPs are trying to join that class and do their best to ensure that they are closer than when they started out - its a perpetual cycle.
 
GibbosEmpire said:
How on earth would Labour currently be anything left?
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Agreed. Zero policies pushing left on anything and yet some will insist they're "centre-left". It's make believe.

Not the fashion on here to actually listen to the policies the party make public and form a judgement on that... but recently we've had:

Reeves insist there'll be no wealth taxes, no increase to the top rate of income tax, and no industries brought into public ownership.

Starmers made it clear they won't reverse any of the tory legislation on trade unions, banning protest, or the two child limit on child benefit.

Streetings revealed they'll not be doing anything to reverse privatisation in the NHS and they'll actually outsource more services.

Anyone still claiming they're any sort of left is misinformed or lying.
 
GibbosEmpire said:
How on earth would Labour currently be anything left?
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Firstly I do not mean to be rude, but read #10, then some reflection will maybe allow you to see. You presumably must be hard/mainstream left there is a sliding scale before you get to centre, then a sliding scale before you get to far right nut job.

Tories are made up of a load from just right of centre to RWNJ, thats why they are always falling out and having new leaders. If you think of the political scale as being a 300mm ruler with 0 being hard left and 150mm as centre and 300mm being RWNJ, many MP’s will be on a different particular mm to others in their party. The 2 main party’s use the term broad church to reflect that. The British public are the same, most people erring toward centre left and centre right.

Most human beings resist massive change, they fear risk and consequences of upheaval, politics affects all our lives and it is a fact that many people are frightened to have sweeping change that the hard left would bring about asap. Power is only effective with the keys to 10 Downing St, otherwise it is just white noise. Only in power can change begin to be implemented and those frothing at the margins (like some on here) are generally the loudest, but the silent majority are the people that decide the outcome, you have to have peoples trust and will, to go on a journey and it is best done in stages, otherwise you get people leaving in droves along the way and you are back to 1️⃣
 
coluka said:
They are currently to the left of centre somewhere between soft left and left of centre on Easterside’s scale, just like Blairs government was, anybody thinking otherwise must be mainstream or hard left. People really need to understand the political make up of the country and understand what it needs and takes to be electable.

No matter what the mainstream/hard left supporters on here feel, you can never win an election in Britain on such a mandate as things stand. The best bet is get elected as a moderate left of centre party first then start playing the softly softly catchy monkey game and make changes slowly but surely without lurching heavily to the left and that way you may take the people with you on a journey toward your preferred destination across time, otherwise, the tories WILL BE RE-ELECTED 🤷‍♂️
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I hardly ever comment on political posts, this however is spot on Coluka. Thanks.
 
Johnny Vincents Motorbike said:
Starmer - or as he is known these days 'Sir Kid Starver' is Right - a long way away from the centre of the LP much further away than Blair - however that shows just how mis-aligned these Islands are after a Brexit and 13 years of the Tories & 5 failed useless tory PMs.

One thing about tory politicians and governments is that they look after their own class - most labour MPs are trying to join that class and do their best to ensure that they are closer than when they started out - its a perpetual cycle.
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Anyone referring to him as “Sir Kid Starver” needs to grow up. Pathetic.
 
coluka said:
The best bet is get elected as a moderate left of centre party first then start playing the softly softly catchy monkey game and make changes slowly but surely without lurching heavily to the left and that way you may take the people with you on a journey toward your preferred destination across time,
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Sounds great in theory but it doesn't ever work out that way does it? I always make this point on here, but we've never had a government that move to the left the longer they're in power, or that govern further left than they claimed they would when campaigning in opposition. Even Attlee's Labour didn't have the nerve to go in to the 50/51 elections saying they would do anything more than consolidate the gains they'd made in their first term.

coluka said:
otherwise, the tories WILL BE RE-ELECTED
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That's the problem with incrementalism. There's no "otherwise" about it. Sooner or later the tories will be re-elected. Non tory governments simply don't have the time to faff about with journeys and monkeys.
 
coluka said:
Most human beings resist massive change, they fear risk and consequences of upheaval,
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Again Col, this sounds right when people hear/read it, but it's not that simple.

How did leave win the EU referendum if people are so resistant to change? How did Scottish independence get as close to winning as it did? How have the SNP dominated Scottish politics since? How did Trump and Boris win their elections?

From the UKs referendum campaigns I think you have to conclude that big scary changes become more appealing to people if they're actually talked about. Having a referendum period, where campaigners actually make the case for Brexit or an independent Scotland or whatever else, increases the number of people that buy into that concept. So if Labour really do want to take people on a journey towards left wing politics they need to make the case for that politics. They'll never convince anyone to move to the left, by Labour's leadership moving to the right.
 
SuperStu said:
Sounds great in theory but it doesn't ever work out that way does it? I always make this point on here, but we've never had a government that move to the left the longer they're in power, or that govern further left than they claimed they would when campaigning in opposition. Even Attlee's Labour didn't have the nerve to go in to the 50/51 elections saying they would do anything more than consolidate the gains they'd made in their first term.



That's the problem with incrementalism. There's no "otherwise" about it. Sooner or later the tories will be re-elected. Non tory governments simply don't have the time to faff about with journeys and monkeys.
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You have 2 choices in our political landscape, run a campaign to suit the majority of voters or shout and scream from the margins and be powerless. Idealism never wins. You currently have a choice of Starmer or Sunak, that might yet change as the tories love a new leadership contest, every vote for anyone else can in some cases be a proxy vote for the tories. I hope people have the good sense to vote tactically to vote for a candidate best placed to beat the tory in power, in some cases that may be a Liberal, SNP, Green etc, but in most cases it will be Labour, so where Labour has a chance, vote for them and hold your nose if you must, otherwise don’t come spouting here or anywhere else afterwards bemoaning another Tory Prime Minister.
 
coluka said:
Firstly I do not mean to be rude, but read #10, then some reflection will maybe allow you to see. You presumably must be hard/mainstream left there is a sliding scale before you get to centre, then a sliding scale before you get to far right nut job.

Tories are made up of a load from just right of centre to RWNJ, thats why they are always falling out and having new leaders. If you think of the political scale as being a 300mm ruler with 0 being hard left and 150mm as centre and 300mm being RWNJ, many MP’s will be on a different particular mm to others in their party. The 2 main party’s use the term broad church to reflect that. The British public are the same, most people erring toward centre left and centre right.

Most human beings resist massive change, they fear risk and consequences of upheaval, politics affects all our lives and it is a fact that many people are frightened to have sweeping change that the hard left would bring about asap. Power is only effective with the keys to 10 Downing St, otherwise it is just white noise. Only in power can change begin to be implemented and those frothing at the margins (like some on here) are generally the loudest, but the silent majority are the people that decide the outcome, you have to have peoples trust and will, to go on a journey and it is best done in stages, otherwise you get people leaving in droves along the way and you are back to 1️⃣
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If you always define the centre-point as where the Tories begin then you're always pushing the centre further to the right which just adds bias to the measure. Any mainstream left will always be centre-left under that model. It doesn't reflect politics it just shows you where the parties are relative to each other.

Starmer is not centre-left politically.

If we aren't going to use political definitions then there's nothing to discuss as there can be no consensus. We all just posit our own version of where the centre is and go about our business.
 
SuperStu said:
Again Col, this sounds right when people hear/read it, but it's not that simple.

How did leave win the EU referendum if people are so resistant to change? How did Scottish independence get as close to winning as it did? How have the SNP dominated Scottish politics since? How did Trump and Boris win their elections?

From the UKs referendum campaigns I think you have to conclude that big scary changes become more appealing to people if they're actually talked about. Having a referendum period, where campaigners actually make the case for Brexit or an independent Scotland or whatever else, increases the number of people that buy into that concept. So if Labour really do want to take people on a journey towards left wing politics they need to make the case for that politics. They'll never convince anyone to move to the left, by Labour's leadership moving to the right.
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People vote for all sorts of reasons Brexit was a lie from all sides from start to finish and opened Pandora’s box to all sorts of spurious issues as you well know Including just to give Cameron a bloody nose. It was a protest vote by many who thought it would never happen, a second referendum and it would never have happened. No point going over old ground Stu, in politics you need to be a chameleon, all things to all people as much as you can. Seriously, if you stick to such strong principles then you’ll just get the tories again, change can be done but gradually over time and decades. The landscape is forever moving and you need to move with it, if you can’t or wont see that then you keep the country inadvertently in the grip of the tories. Nobody In large numbers wants a hard left government barring the idealists.
 
SuperStu said:
Again Col, this sounds right when people hear/read it, but it's not that simple.

How did leave win the EU referendum if people are so resistant to change? How did Scottish independence get as close to winning as it did? How have the SNP dominated Scottish politics since? How did Trump and Boris win their elections?

From the UKs referendum campaigns I think you have to conclude that big scary changes become more appealing to people if they're actually talked about. Having a referendum period, where campaigners actually make the case for Brexit or an independent Scotland or whatever else, increases the number of people that buy into that concept. So if Labour really do want to take people on a journey towards left wing politics they need to make the case for that politics. They'll never convince anyone to move to the left, by Labour's leadership moving to the right.
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Leave won the EU referendum because the right wing media backed the lies. The supposed "independent" media wouldn't call them out for fear of being called impartial.

I agree people aren't necessarily afraid of change, but it's not a level playing field. Not even close.

Using brexit as an example to support the idea labour could push a clear left wing agenda isn't comparing apples with apples.

I do believe they could be bolder, but given the way the deck is stacked, I do understand them not being.

F***ing depressing isn't it?
 
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