The final nail in the coffin for the high street?

JM14 said:
Most high streets dont have the infrastructure for a large volume of traffic anyway. We should be making our high streets safer and healthier places to be, you dont get that by encouraging a load of cars into streets/roads that were never designed for high volumes of vehicles just to try to save a high street that will be gone in 20 years anyway
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So you've missed my point about sustainable public transport serving newly rejuvenated high streets, and just decided that cars aren't welcome because high streets "will be gone in 20 years"?
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
So you've missed my point about sustainable public transport serving newly rejuvenated high streets, and just decided that cars aren't welcome because high streets "will be gone in 20 years"?
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In a city centre the sustainable public transport argument works but how many towns/villages in the north east have sustainable public transport thats a viable alternative to a car?
Our shopping habits in 20 years time will likely be entirely online, spending millions to attract people to a high street now is a complete waste of money.
 
Out of necessity I've needed to buy a couple of items online during lockdown and, to be honest, it was as much of a faff as hopping on a 'bus to go to a shop, where I could actually see what I was buying before purchase.
 
JM14 said:
In a city centre the sustainable public transport argument works but how many towns/villages in the north east have sustainable public transport thats a viable alternative to a car?
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Way to narrow the argument, so now we're looking exclusively at towns/villages in the North East ? Just because they don't have a sustainable transport infrastructure then should we declare the high street over and not look for a way to make them viable ?

JM14 said:
Our shopping habits in 20 years time will likely be entirely online, spending millions to attract people to a high street now is a complete waste of money.
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I'm willing to bet they wont. Somewhere like Leeds, Manchester or the center of London will not disappear as a shopping hub in the next 20 years, evolve certainly, but when you have places like Harvey Nichols and Selfridges, that'll attract both footfall as well as other inward investments.
 
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newusername said:
Do you have any more details?

I've had a quick look online & the 1st shop I come to on Borough Road has a Zone A of £140/m2 and again the first one I found on Bond Street is 4.25x as high.

Assuming Zone A's are consistent along both roads, the shop in Middlesbrough would have to be 4.25x the size to have a comparable rates bill to the one in London everything else being equal.
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Some in TS1 (I put in the post code of Nat West) pay £500 per m2 of shop space, which is absolutely ludicrous. Most of the shops there are paying 40-80k per year just in rates, it's ridiculous. What do they get in return for that?
 
Andy_W said:
Some in TS1 (I put in the post code of Nat West) pay £500 per m2 of shop space, which is absolutely ludicrous. Most of the shops there are paying 40-80k per year just in rates, it's ridiculous. What do they get in return for that?
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Aircraft carriers, nuclear weapons etc.
 
JM14 said:
In a city centre the sustainable public transport argument works but how many towns/villages in the north east have sustainable public transport thats a viable alternative to a car?
Our shopping habits in 20 years time will likely be entirely online, spending millions to attract people to a high street now is a complete waste of money.
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What about the hundreds of thousands who work in the retail sector?

b***r them?
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
And as lizards says. Rent.

People wear ill fitting clothes. I mean stuff like shoes with jeans with an untucked shirt is just bad taste. And a lot of it is down to the fact that most men either aren't interested in or don't know how to look good. But you can't tell what you're going to look like until you've tried them on and looked in the mirror.
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People don't dress badly due to buying clothes online. It's not like everyone on Teesside was well dressed prior to internet shopping. There's always the option to send stuff back, often for free. I would suggest most buy the type of clothes online that they would on the high street.
 
Business rates are just currently wrong if small shops in Middlesbrough are paying £40k to £80k in rates. Some of the shops must be only worth £100k. Its not "the High Street is dying" its been killed by Central Government (if they set the rates). £40k a year to get your shop rubbish taken away and pay for customers 2 hour free parking. If Amazon had to pay the rates the high street shops did, they would not be able to under cut physical stores.

When the high street is empty where is the Government going to collect the tax lost from?

Primark does not do online because approx 50% of online clothes/footwear are returned. It costs Primark approx £6.50 for a return which in some cases only were a £5 order.

Just think of the negative enviromental impact of so many returned goods.

At home we return a lot of goods because they are slightly damaged, look like they are second hand when delivered, don't fit, do not look like the way they looked when online.

I can understand the convenience of ordering online and I can see how it enables retailers to operate more cheaply (by avoiding high rates and rent) and how its great for more obscure items and increasing choice, but I do think it has a limit. Its been around for 20 years so I think if you are not doing it now you have decided you prefer to shop in a real shop if that option is still open. There are probably now reluctant online shoppers appearing who are losing real shop options.

Ref food online - its not always cheaper - usually there is a delivery charge and you miss the yellow sticker items, sometimes you end up paying for a more expensive item and sometimes the goods can be damaged or very close to the sell by date. There is also sometimes a tendency to order more online than you need to get to the minimum order level and fresh food can end up wasted.
 
Anyone who thinks that once the high street competition is gone that these online retailers are going to be paying for the likes of Hermes, DHL etc to come round and collect your returns for free are dreaming!
 
It would be nice to see it go a similar way to micro pubs. Big retailers will always dominate but with empty shops and units available, some small businesses that offer something different might emerge.

Offering something a bit different that wasn't mass produced in sweatshops. Im happy to pay a bit more for a quality product of any variety, especially if its helping a small business and unique (in that its not mass produced).

Fingers crossed it works out for the little guys who can't typically even afford the lease/rent. With highstreet shops moving online, the cost of rent may come down. (I may be completely wrong on that but i hope its true)
 
You can rejuvenate the high street all you want but retail parks do well because there is plenty of parking and the units are all big and decent brands. They’re also far enough away that it’s a bother for the scrotes to get to. Plenty of retail park stores struggle as well and many have disappeared from tees park on the way but on the whole they’re more attractive to shop at and laid out in such a way you can get around the shops without walking 5 miles. Large food units l on site too.

I reckon high streets will need to repurpose as high quality housing to provide footfall for remaining businesses and increase in service type businesses for the remaining units. Some people will like to shop still but it’s going to be a different landscape
 
I have a kitchen show room just off the high street in a Devon town. It is a major concern the number of shops closing around us, but equally there are business opening all of the time. I can see the make up of the high street changing dramatically. I believe that you will see small independent traders have a bigger presence. It is the clothes shops that are going at the fastest rate. A lot of the brands that are disappearing appeal to the younger end of the market and yes they are better at buying on line. They also are more likely to fit into the clothes on offer. I have to admit that I need to try clothes on before buying, as I am older, fat and a non standard shape. Clothes retailer are possible going to change into a showroom with changing rooms and not hold stock, this would allow you to browse, try on and then order on line for a delivery to either store or home. They would also allow returns, the current model is unsustainable, I am amazed how many garments my children send back. A showroom would also cut down on rates, rent and stock holding as you would need a lot less space.
Shopping is an activity that is in our DNA, however it will evolve into a leisure activity involving entertainment in smaller, more discrete units. I hope that there will be more choice and individuality as customers demand more from retailers.
I live on my own and have massive issues buying online, as there is nobody at home to take in the deliveries. I would much rather buy something in a shop and bring it home there and then.
 
Randy said:
What about the hundreds of thousands who work in the retail sector?

b***r them?
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Just what happens when our habits change, jobs lost on the high street but places like Amazon are creating thousands of new jobs every year

Would be nice if we used this opportunity to open the high street up to more bars and restaurants and made it pedestrian friendly instead of a big car park which is what most small towns/villages high streets around here have become.
No point in trying to compete with out of town shopping centres and the rise of online shopping, throwing money at it wont change a thing.
 
As mentioned I feel that rent, rates and easily comparable products via the internet are the major threats to the high street. I ran a small commercial art gallery in the city of London in the early 00s. Our rent went from £40k a year to £145k and this was in no small part driven by coffee/food chains and landlord greed. Landlords would rather leave a shop empty than lower the market demand for rental value. We had to sub let to someone else for the remaining 5 years and get out of the space, it was unsustainable.
The other thing that was killing us was product visibility, even for something as bespoke as fine art. You could now easily find it elsewhere for cheaper and you were either used to bargain with or lose a sale.
 
I can count on one hand the number of items I've bought on line in the past 2 years. I shop as local as possible and if I can't find it locally do I really need it that much, or can an alternative be found locally?
If I can't find it in my home town or region I'll go to Auckland (two hours away) if I can't find it there I generally don't buy it online (a Boro top was an exception as can't get them in NZ).
Every time you shop on line you are potentially taking away the jobs of somebody that works in your local community, maybe your partner, child, cousin etc.
And the argument will be 'oh but you can buy it cheaper on line'. Yes this is often the case, but the extra $5-$20 you save may cost somebody else their job, or be the nail that finally closes down your local store that sells similar products.
That's just me though and I know most people do. But when you rellie or friend who works in retail tells you they've lost their job or the company's closing due to dror in sales think about the reasons why.
 
bungydinsdale said:
I can count on one hand the number of items I've bought on line in the past 2 years. I shop as local as possible and if I can't find it locally do I really need it that much, or can an alternative be found locally?
If I can't find it in my home town or region I'll go to Auckland (two hours away) if I can't find it there I generally don't buy it online (a Boro top was an exception as can't get them in NZ).
Every time you shop on line you are potentially taking away the jobs of somebody that works in your local community, maybe your partner, child, cousin etc.
And the argument will be 'oh but you can buy it cheaper on line'. Yes this is often the case, but the extra $5-$20 you save may cost somebody else their job, or be the nail that finally closes down your local store that sells similar products.
That's just me though and I know most people do. But when you rellie or friend who works in retail tells you they've lost their job or the company's closing due to dror in sales think about the reasons why.
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The computer you wrote this on put loads of telegram writers and postal staff out of the job due to advent of email and instant communications, likewise mobile phones.

You can’t just half progress and freeze life as a snapshot in time because people are comfortable.

The other side of the coin is where jobs are being lost, young people coming out of uni are getting involved in programming dev QA test business analysis rpa automation etc so by freezing the progress of technology you stymy their futures

Change is often uncomfortable but you can’t control it, it will just happen. Two great examples of resisting change heavily are Kodak believing digital cameras to not be the future, they were everywhere in photography from film to cameras and now they don’t even make them anymore, they do printers and imaging. Another is blockbuster having the opportunity to buy Netflix for just 50 million dollars.

Easy to get misty eyed about these brands disappearing but they will have squeezed out many independent traders to get where they are today, just as supermarkets were largely the death knell for green grocers and fishmongers etc, now largely relegated to rare units or farm shops. They’ve also been chronically mismanaged and nit evolved with the times so whilst any loss of jobs is inherently sad, it’s not up to me to like their shareholders pockets.

People talk about an online tax to bring parity but that is just madness, any firm starting up would be off kilter right away due to paying a tax for not running a property. It’s just changing society, people don’t want to “go down down” anymore and spend money on parking and carrying stuff shop to shop, when it can get delivered next day and be sent back really easily.

The things I buy on amazon aren’t sold in teesside, certainly not by any independent stores. And I have no particular wish to go to a store and pay £10-50 more for an item from one corporation just because they’ve got a fat 25 year lease out of some misguided sense of community spirit.
 
I always think of Yarm High Street as an ideal model. Mixture of Pubs, restaurants, cafes, clothes shops, fish and chips, DIY and even a Boyes!
I like the fact that there is no big name stores.
I think the traffic going through the high street is an advantage as it doesn't turn into a ghost town at night.
I know parking can be a bit of a mare but it still feels like a bit of a trip out.
 
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