The final nail in the coffin for the high street?

[ThatFragranceGuy]

You can still leave the house as much as you like (lockdown non-withstanding) and socialise as much as you like. I personally don’t class getting swooped on the second I enter a shop by a sales team or having to be firm that I don’t want an extended warranty for the third time as a social interaction worth institutionalising.

I’ve never spent so much on local services, Independent traders, eateries, micro pubs, cocktail bars etc as I have in the last few years. These businesses are also being agile now and doing delivery and online sales because they are able to move with the times.

I’ll never forget my ex buying a webcam so she could Skype her parents in Wales. Was at Dixon’s for £130 plus £40 for a warranty when the same camera was £50 online. It’s genuinely little wonder people shop online rather than paying inflated prices like that.

Remember that many of the issues these disappearing brands are facing are of their own making by failing to adapt to fashion changes and consumer behaviour, taking out expensive long leases and over expanding which will have competed with other traders. Debenhams in 2006 was planning to double its number of stores despite struggling, and even in 2019 they were still trying to open new stores to trade themselves out of trouble. If they had rationalised and right sized their business model years ago they would likely have survived, instead of selling their free holds and leasing them back into 2030 and beyond

M&S in stockton long since closed but they signed a 235 year lease in the 70’s which will earn tens of millions to the land lord to sit empty, so it’s likely to be empty until M&S go bust as no one will match that. It’s crazy. Again why tax online just so it has to be on parity with this level of idiocy?

 

[ThatFragranceGuy]

I always think of Yarm High Street as an ideal model. Mixture of Pubs, restaurants, cafes, clothes shops, fish and chips, DIY and even a Boyes!
I like the fact that there is no big name stores.
I think the traffic going through the high street is an advantage as it doesn't turn into a ghost town at night.
I know parking can be a bit of a mare but it still feels like a bit of a trip out.

It does have big brands (barclays, bang & olufsen, sainsburies, fat face etc) but I agree it’s a good model, but works I guess because they’re small stores rather than huge units, and an affluent area so a lot of money to spend in the shops.

Helps there isn’t 500 charity shops and 56 bookies

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

It does have big brands (barclays, bang & olufsen, sainsburies, fat face etc) but I agree it’s a good model, but works I guess because they’re small stores rather than huge units, and an affluent area so a lot of money to spend in the shops.

Helps there isn’t 500 charity shops and 56 bookies

Same for Northallerton, I'd never think of shopping in Yarm but we shop in Northallerton. It's ok for those with access to a car and a few bob in the bank.

 

[wilkos_perm]

You can still leave the house as much as you like (lockdown non-withstanding) and socialise as much as you like. I personally don’t class getting swooped on the second I enter a shop by a sales team or having to be firm that I don’t want an extended warranty for the third time as a social interaction worth institutionalising.

I’ve never spent so much on local services, Independent traders, eateries, micro pubs, cocktail bars etc as I have in the last few years. These businesses are also being agile now and doing delivery and online sales because they are able to move with the times.

I’ll never forget my ex buying a webcam so she could Skype her parents in Wales. Was at Dixon’s for £130 plus £40 for a warranty when the same camera was £50 online. It’s genuinely little wonder people shop online rather than paying inflated prices like that.

Remember that many of the issues these disappearing brands are facing are of their own making by failing to adapt to fashion changes and consumer behaviour, taking out expensive long leases and over expanding which will have competed with other traders. Debenhams in 2006 was planning to double its number of stores despite struggling, and even in 2019 they were still trying to open new stores to trade themselves out of trouble. If they had rationalised and right sized their business model years ago they would likely have survived, instead of selling their free holds and leasing them back into 2030 and beyond

M&S in stockton long since closed but they signed a 235 year lease in the 70’s which will earn tens of millions to the land lord to sit empty, so it’s likely to be empty until M&S go bust as no one will match that. It’s crazy. Again why tax online just so it has to be on parity with this level of idiocy?

I couldn't agree more regarding social interaction. For me personally i have no interest in trudging around shops, i'd rather free up the time doing it ionline then use the timne to socialise in a more enjoyable setting.
We buy locally in our fruit and veg shops and butchers, and local restaurants and cafes. That works as it's a pleasant experience, and you get rewarded with quality at a good price. Wandering around a high street store that hasn't been updated since the 70s is a totally different matter, i'm not sure why we should be reasonably expected to support such businesses, as bad as it is for those employed there.
There's also plenty of small businesses operating online who are worthy of support, more so than a large high street store exploiting it's worth force, it doesn't have to be Amazon etc.

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

I think the trouble is there are lots of people who do hugely value the social interactions we are losing. It's not just a question of going to the shops, it's being forced to work from home. The push of rent Vs the pull of convenience, slowly chipping away. Having spent a year isolated it really hits home.
And to see a store the size of top shop on Oxford Street go hits home that really nothing is too big to go. The place was always packed an absolute Mecca.
I wonder what will be next. We're already losing the pubs. Will resteraunts go in favour of take away. Will we lose our live music venues as people switch to online. Are we going to see football crowds dropping.

 

[Randy]

I think the trouble is there are lots of people who do hugely value the social interactions we are losing. It's not just a question of going to the shops, it's being forced to work from home. The push of rent Vs the pull of convenience, slowly chipping away. Having spent a year isolated it really hits home.
And to see a store the size of top shop on Oxford Street go hits home that really nothing is too big to go. The place was always packed an absolute Mecca.
I wonder what will be next. We're already losing the pubs. Will resteraunts go in favour of take away. Will we lose our live music venues as people switch to online. Are we going to see football crowds dropping.

Don't think we see fans back in stadiums until 2022. Live music? Probably the same.

 

[wilkos_perm]

I think the trouble is there are lots of people who do hugely value the social interactions we are losing. It's not just a question of going to the shops, it's being forced to work from home. The push of rent Vs the pull of convenience, slowly chipping away. Having spent a year isolated it really hits home.
And to see a store the size of top shop on Oxford Street go hits home that really nothing is too big to go. The place was always packed an absolute Mecca.
I wonder what will be next. We're already losing the pubs. Will resteraunts go in favour of take away. Will we lose our live music venues as people switch to online. Are we going to see football crowds dropping.

I'm not sure about restaurants and bars, certainly the ones around us who've modernised their approach do really well (lockdown aside). Those more traditional settings have undoubtedly suffered. I can't get on board with the idea that people packing into top shop was some sort of beneficial social interaction. Hopefully in some places this will be replaced by more beneficial experiences, but this isn't likely beyond the big cities.

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

I don't think most blokes appreciate shopping.

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

I'm not sure about restaurants and bars, certainly the ones around us who've modernised their approach do really well (lockdown aside). Those more traditional settings have undoubtedly suffered. I can't get on board with the idea that people packing into top shop was some sort of beneficial social interaction. Hopefully in some places this will be replaced by more beneficial experiences, but this isn't likely beyond the big cities.

There's more can't get on board with watching football, it's what many do in their spare time, which isn't just going into one shop, it's going into an array as well as using the cafes and bars in town.

 

[The_Lizards_Jumpers]

I can't get on board with the idea that people packing into top shop was some sort of beneficial social interaction. Hopefully in some places this will be replaced by more beneficial experiences, but this isn't likely beyond the big cities.

Perhaps because you're not a 15 year old girl who is looking for a new outfit, similar to what Cardi B is wearing, to wear in your new Tik Tok video ?

Shopping, is and has been for a long while now, a rite of passage and something many millions of people enjoy doing as a leisure pursuit. It's going to change, and has many times before, but physical shops in some form or another will be here for a long time to come.

 

[ThatFragranceGuy]

Perhaps because you're not a 15 year old girl who is looking for a new outfit, similar to what Cardi B is wearing, to wear in your new Tik Tok video ?

Shopping, is and has been for a long while now, a rite of passage and something many millions of people enjoy doing as a leisure pursuit. It's going to change, and has many times before, but physical shops in some form or another will be here for a long time to come.

But most of that market you mention will gravitate to nastygal, PLT, ASOS, boohoo etc which have no stores, or primark which do but far cheaper, as they’re faster to respond to what is in fashion now , and not using seasons planned a year in advance

If people values these social interactions so highly the high street / retail trade probably wouldn’t be where it is right now, but for many price and convenience is king, as is fast product availability. B&Q the worst for me, amount of times I’ve gone down for something supposedly in stock on their system but none in. Almost exclusively use screwfix now because I can order online and collect within a few minutes, still a retail store but far more efficient, but doesn’t obviously sell everything

 

[Redwurzel]

Women and teenage girls often shop together and make it a trip out. Most shoppers are female.

Smaller shops you can chat with staff and owners about stuff beyond extended warranties. Web chat is not the same experience for me as face to face - Covid aside.

Philip Green had lost interest in retailing back in 2002 - his wife took £1200m out of Arcardia which meant there was little money for updating the stores etc. The same happened at BHS.

Debenhams owners took large sums out too that the business could not afford. Where I live we had a brand new Debenhams in 2014, so I don't agree they were all behind the times. It felt a little souless to me but it was bright and spacious with a lot of choice, 2 cafes, a lot of beauty type counters, nice toilets and changing rooms. They have probably suffered from high rent and rates and struggled against Primark on price.

I still think there is a momentum for online shopping based on order convenience and some novelty and in some cases lower prices but not always. Plus there is a legacy of high rents and rates on the High Street, which will have to reduce under market forces. One day it will swing back again (to some extent) when it is novel to touch and feel product, try items on, select your own product rather that have to take returns, have a day out shopping.

 

[The_Lizards_Jumpers]

But most of that market you mention will gravitate to nastygal, PLT, ASOS, boohoo etc which have no stores, or primark which do but far cheaper, as they’re faster to respond to what is in fashion now , and not using seasons planned a year in advance

If people values these social interactions so highly the high street / retail trade probably wouldn’t be where it is right now, but for many price and convenience is king, as is fast product availability. B&Q the worst for me, amount of times I’ve gone down for something supposedly in stock on their system but none in. Almost exclusively use screwfix now because I can order online and collect within a few minutes, still a retail store but far more efficient, but doesn’t obviously sell everything

Of course sites like you've described are going to take wallet share from the likes of Top Shop, but the key is to differentiate themselves from those websites, whether it be through celebrity tie ins (Kate Moss for Top Shop as an example) or through making their shops destinations in themselves which the Oxford Street Top Shop did so well.

I also think that you're probably not your typical shopper, as on here you come across as very sensible, reasoned and logical when it comes to buying things (no offence intended), and for many shopping is a much more emotional experience which you don't get from comparing multiple price comparison review sites and doing your research - people like to shop and go shopping for certain things and in certain ways - it's up to the high street to adopt and adapt to these new ways of leisure time and find something that works for them long term and can compete with the likes of Amazon on something other than price.

Most retailers will only succeed if they become a true multi-channel retailer, able to deliver what people want through the channel they want it and have a 360 view of that customer across those channels to ensure that as a business they're can move with customers changing needs.

 

[wilkos_perm]

Perhaps because you're not a 15 year old girl who is looking for a new outfit, similar to what Cardi B is wearing, to wear in your new Tik Tok video ?

Shopping, is and has been for a long while now, a rite of passage and something many millions of people enjoy doing as a leisure pursuit. It's going to change, and has many times before, but physical shops in some form or another will be here for a long time to come.

I'm not imagining physical shops won't be here for a long while. But shops have to move with the times and make themselves seem appealing and relevant. The idea of supporting places that have limited stock, no-n competitive pricing and depressing aesthetics isn't viable. Pehaps many do still enjot it, but for many high street shopping was endured out of necessity and now there's no going back.

 

[The_Lizards_Jumpers]

The idea of supporting places that have limited stock, no-n competitive pricing and depressing aesthetics isn't viable.

Completely agree, but your point was about not seeing the attraction of Oxford Street's Top Shop, my response was simply that it's not designed for you as a middle aged(?) male, but a completely different consumer.

 

[wilkos_perm]

Completely agree, but your point was about not seeing the attraction of Oxford Street's Top Shop, my response was simply that it's not designed for you as a middle aged(?) male, but a completely different consumer.

Well you're making a massive assumption there When does middle age start?

But Topshop was just an example really, you could replace it with Debenhams for ano older clientele, but i take your point on the example used.

 

[ThatFragranceGuy]

Good example of the playing field

 

[Nero]

The traditional High Street was already in terminal decline long before Covid. I think what we will see in years to come are High Streets becoming more like entertainment venues with more bars, restaurants, theatres and the like. People will visit for recreation rather than shopping. I guess Stockton with the closing down of many shops and the reopening of The Globe Theatre is a good example of this.

This is exactly what I think too. Just look at the Amazon Warehouses in the North East. There's a huge facility in Darlington, Durham and soon to be Billingham. Online retail is hammering traditional shopping, so town and city centres have to be reinvented. SBC's plans to demolish the Castlegate and open up the river is a very good one.

 

[JackG]

Good example of the playing field

Can you explain the Next figures?

 

[jeff_potato]

I would like to see the impact of returns from online sales. I've never bought clothes online until this pandemic and it's a real pain because everything seems to be different sizes from different manufacturers, so instead of a ten minute drive to the Metro and finding something quickly, it takes a couple of weeks around deliveries and arranging pickups.

It surprises me how many returns are free, though; there must be load of young people buying clothes, doing their 'outfit of the day' for Instagram and sending them back: that must surely be a massive overhead. (Although obviously not as massive as rent for a shop)

Fenwick in Newcastle is a mind boggling example of how not to run a store in the 2020s. When my tumble dryer broke, the replacement I wanted was only about £10 dearer in there than online, so I tried to buy it... one person speaks to me, gets a colleague. They fill in a chitty (Is it 1968?!?) and hand it to the supervisor. They ring it through and then tell me that actually, they only deliver to my postcode on a Tuesday morning at a specific time. So I'll have to be in. No can do: I must be at work at that time. Oh well, no sale. And that was that!

We walked outside, got out my phone and it was delivered within 48 hours... crazy.