The final nail in the coffin for the high street?

Andy_W said:
One of the problems is the rent and rates, the system is messed up.
...
Rates go up or stay the same, even though demand for high street retail goes down, this should be proportional, not the inverse.
Parking goes up, which costs the staff, and costs the shoppers, which drives away both.

The ... council are their own worst enemies and they had it too good for too long, and now they just can't let the money go, so they're going to run it into the ground and squeeze out every penny for the short time they had left. Where as the future would be in moving with the newer requirements, and taxing the industries gaining out of these changes (but who are doing it with less jobs, which in turn means less tax in the pot).
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Business Rates are set by Central Government not local authorities.
The Ratable Value is assessed once every 5 years by the Valuation Office Agency a central government body. The current RV is based roughly on the average rent people were paying for a comparable property on 1st April 2015.
The rates payable is based on the Unified Business Rate which is set by central government annually and is currently c.50p in the £ of RV.

So an RV of £50k means the VOA have evidence people were paying £50k p.a. in rent in 2015 for similar properties and therefore your Business Rates bill will be c.£25k.
 
newusername said:
Business Rates are set by Central Government not local authorities.
The Ratable Value is assessed once every 5 years by the Valuation Office Agency a central government body. The current RV is based roughly on the average rent people were paying for a comparable property on 1st April 2015.
The rates payable is based on the Unified Business Rate which is set by central government annually and is currently c.50p in the £ of RV.

So an RV of £50k means the VOA have evidence people were paying £50k p.a. in rent in 2015 for similar properties and therefore your Business Rates bill will be c.£25k.
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Yes, I'm aware, the rates go into the pot for the local authorities though, and it's based on post code, it is in their best interest that these rates are as high as possible (or they at least think it is, they will soon find out it isn't).

My point is a system based on area (m2), and "rateable value" is completely ludicrous, it was ludicrous in 2010, never mind 2015 and now.

I don't even pay business rates (or not even noticed the bill) as far as I can tell, and have a yard, some big buildings (which I own) a turnover of about 1m and a decent profit, yet some shop turning over 500k, going broke can get hammered on rates, it's messed up.
I don't even think I should be paying rates, as we're not big enough and pay massive taxes elsewhere, but my point is more that the little shops shouldn't, certainly not, they should be last in line for rates, yet they get hammered the most.
 
Stockton high street is dead, yet in normal time Teesside park is buzzing, so we need to look at the differences.

Free and available parking, are the council kidding if they think I would pay to park and go to M&S in Stockton when I can park right outside one at Teesside park for free.

A mix of retail and leisure, why going to Boots inspires someone to go to KFC or Pizza express I don’t know, but it seems to be the case.

No pubs, interestingly.
 
Erimus74 said:
Free parking 👍
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a) Free parking isn't the boon that people think it is.
Shopping centres with acres of free parking are suffering the same closures as high streets, the same drop in footfall, the same downward pressure on rents and landlords are going bust because of it.

What high street stores need is customers and, assuming they all arrive by car (which they don't roughly 1/3 of population have no vehicle in the household), that means available spaces to park and what that means is turnover in parking.
It is no good having all day free parking and then the spaces being taken by local residents, workers etc that leave their cars there so there is nothing available for shoppers.
But if you set a limit on free parking, 30 minutes an hour 2 hours whatever, then people rush to finish their shopping within that time limit, they won't stay to eat. Certainly won't drink as they are driving...

There was research undertaken in the US a few years ago that showed that the majority of drivers need to see two empty spaces per block every time they drive past a parade of shops to even consider going there, if they don't then the fact they may have to hunt for a parking space, find one not on the same block, parallel park, walk a distance to the shop, etc meant they would only go to those shops rarely & for items that couldn't be bought elsewhere.

b) Free parking isn't free.
The cost of providing it at out of town retail or a supermarket or shopping centre is passed on to the customers in the price they pay for goods, even those that don't drive there.
 
There was an article in The Telegraph a few years ago about business rates saying that a shop on Borough Rd in Middlesbrough only pays £200 a year less in rates than one on Bond St.......WTF!!
 
newusername said:
a) Free parking isn't the boon that people think it is.
Shopping centres with acres of free parking are suffering the same closures as high streets, the same drop in footfall, the same downward pressure on rents and landlords are going bust because of it.

What high street stores need is customers and, assuming they all arrive by car (which they don't roughly 1/3 of population have no vehicle in the household), that means available spaces to park and what that means is turnover in parking.
It is no good having all day free parking and then the spaces being taken by local residents, workers etc that leave their cars there so there is nothing available for shoppers.
But if you set a limit on free parking, 30 minutes an hour 2 hours whatever, then people rush to finish their shopping within that time limit, they won't stay to eat. Certainly won't drink as they are driving...

There was research undertaken in the US a few years ago that showed that the majority of drivers need to see two empty spaces per block every time they drive past a parade of shops to even consider going there, if they don't then the fact they may have to hunt for a parking space, find one not on the same block, parallel park, walk a distance to the shop, etc meant they would only go to those shops rarely & for items that couldn't be bought elsewhere.

b) Free parking isn't free.
The cost of providing it at out of town retail or a supermarket or shopping centre is passed on to the customers in the price they pay for goods, even those that don't drive there.
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Taking you at your word then, why is Stockton High street flat on its ârse when Teesside Park is booming? If we can’t understand the difference we can’t fix the problem.
 
Not sure why its seen as such a bad thing, the highstreet has been in decline for years as shopping habits change. Dont know why some councils are spending fortunes trying to revive them when its already gone. Its for the better too, hardly sustainable encouraging thousands to drive into a town centre to do their shopping when it can all be done online
 
Archiestephens_elbow said:
Should be an online shopping tax when things go back to normal

Oh and free parking
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Not sure I agree with this...

The drive to online shopping over the last 20 or so years has largely come from consumers (otherwise no one would shop online?)

With the limits on people's time moving forward (not to mention the "confidence" effects of Covid) it would seem perverse to tax people based on preference. If high street shopping can't continue in its current guise surely it's up to them to find a model which works? (or go online)
 
JM14 said:
Not sure why its seen as such a bad thing, the highstreet has been in decline for years as shopping habits change. Dont know why some councils are spending fortunes trying to revive them when its already gone. Its for the better too, hardly sustainable encouraging thousands to drive into a town centre to do their shopping when it can all be done online
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Just for a start, the fact that the vast majority of the profits go to via a shell company (likely in Dublin) back to the US rather than into the local community, but that's just the start.

It's also hardly sustainable having thousands upon thousands of delivery vans driving around the country doing door to door deliveries either, especially when for many high streets the main way of actually arriving at them could be via public transport.
 
Andy_W said:
One of the problems is the rent and rates, the system is messed up.
Rents go up or stay the same, even though demand for high street retail goes down, this should be proportional, not the inverse.
Rates go up or stay the same, even though demand for high street retail goes down, this should be proportional, not the inverse.
Parking goes up, which costs the staff, and costs the shoppers, which drives away both.

The landlords and council are their own worst enemies and they had it too good for too long, and now they just can't let the money go, so they're going to run it into the ground and squeeze out every penny for the short time they had left. Where as the future would be in moving with the newer requirements, and taxing the industries gaining out of these changes (but who are doing it with less jobs, which in turn means less tax in the pot).

Not everything will go on line, a lot will, but not everything, but the days of selling everything in massive shops is long gone.

I think there will be a bit of a reversal soon, maybe in the next 10 years. Shopping areas need to be condensed, smaller shops, and a lot more specialised, as everyone selling everything is destroying everything.

Instead of 5 shops selling mens clothes, womens clothes, men's shoes, women's shoes and tat, they're all going to lose (eventually, or until it's last man standing) as they're all competing with each other, and they're all losing to the rates. It's like a casino, there is no way for these guys to win, not whilst the house is taking a bigger percentage every year. They also lose as it's forcing the punter to go to 5 shops, to see what is available.
If one shop sold only mens clothes, one sold only womens clothes, one sold only men's shoes etc etc they would all gain, in that market, have less stock to manage, require less space, less heat, less bills etc, be more specialised and it's better for the punter only going where they need to for a good choice, rather than 5 places with crap choice.

Effectively there needs to be some legislation to stop shops selling everything, as it will ultimately end up in none of them selling anything.
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Just to be clear, Councils do NOT set business rates, the government does. Some Councils collect the business rates on behalf of the government but the revenues go to the treasury where they are redistributed. I’m not for one minute saying Andy has said this but a lot of people out there blame the Councils for business rates and they shouldn’t be.
 
WoodallServices said:
There was an article in The Telegraph a few years ago about business rates saying that a shop on Borough Rd in Middlesbrough only pays £200 a year less in rates than one on Bond St.......WTF!!
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Do you have any more details?

I've had a quick look online & the 1st shop I come to on Borough Road has a Zone A of £140/m2 and again the first one I found on Bond Street is 4.25x as high.

Assuming Zone A's are consistent along both roads, the shop in Middlesbrough would have to be 4.25x the size to have a comparable rates bill to the one in London everything else being equal.

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JM14 said:
Not sure why its seen as such a bad thing, the highstreet has been in decline for years as shopping habits change. Dont know why some councils are spending fortunes trying to revive them when its already gone. Its for the better too, hardly sustainable encouraging thousands to drive into a town centre to do their shopping when it can all be done online
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Why are they delivered on a bike?
 
newusername said:
Do you have any more details?

I've had a quick look online & the 1st shop I come to on Borough Road has a Zone A of £140/m2 and again the first one I found on Bond Street is 4.25x as high.

Assuming Zone A's are consistent along both roads, the shop in Middlesbrough would have to be 4.25x the size to have a comparable rates bill to the one in London everything else being equal.

View attachment 13148 View attachment 13149
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No just remember reading it in The Telegraph.
 
I genuinely think covid was just the final nail in the coffin. I still think many would have gone under in the next few years.

I am as much to blame as many people. I can't think of the last time i trailed around shops to buy something. Just google the item you want or go on amazon and you'll find most things cheaper than a shop... Often massive savings. Also most are next day delivery.

I can give you a quick Debenhams example. I went in roughly 18 months ago and wanted some Levi 501s. They were selling them for £85. I looked on the Levi website and they were doing them 2 pairs for £100. I think nearly every other site was around £50-60 for a pair.

You simply don't get offers and deals in a shop. Even boxing day sales are oftenjust junk they want rid of.

I bought an oled last year that was £350 cheaper on amazon than Currys. Why trapes around currys when you can save 100s of pounds and get it delivered for free the next day? This is why shops are going under.

They simply can't compete. I walked down Portsmouth High Street on Saturday and many shops that had been open post lockdown are now closed and empty. No closing down sales...Simply shut and never to reopen. Those shops all had staff working for them. It's pretty sad really😔
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
Just for a start, the fact that the vast majority of the profits go to via a shell company (likely in Dublin) back to the US rather than into the local community, but that's just the start.

It's also hardly sustainable having thousands upon thousands of delivery vans driving around the country doing door to door deliveries either, especially when for many high streets the main way of actually arriving at them could be via public transport.
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Most high streets dont have the infrastructure for a large volume of traffic anyway. We should be making our high streets safer and healthier places to be, you dont get that by encouraging a load of cars into streets/roads that were never designed for high volumes of vehicles just to try to save a high street that will be gone in 20 years anyway
 
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