Muttley
Well-known member
It was always going to happen at some point, hopefully the crew all got out. Survivability in a "Western" tank is much higher than in the ex-Soviet stuff.
The end?
- Thread starter borolad259
- Start date
Muttley
Well-known member
A report I read said it was a missile hit from a Ka52 chopper? Once deployed forward it will be vulnerable to attacks from drones and helicopters as well as man portable anti tank weapons and artillery. Also worth noting that the Challengers sent to Ukraine lack the full Chobham armour protection.
The footage showing the burning wreck looks like it is probably not repairable (smoke and flames coming out of the turret hatch) so likely a total loss.
Decent_Left
Well-known member
This country can’t even dual the A1 or fix its schools. Ukraine has built more new railway lines and now done this while at war. Iconic image.
Lefty
Well-known member
Looks definitely totaled.
It shows the fierceness of the fighting. Russia has not many Ka52's left it seems, so it's desperate defence to risk them, so it shows how important and difficult it was to stop that advance.
How can they recognise what is not public information? the russian propaganda machine is just as powerful as the american one. The media is used to tell the people what putin wants them to know. The yanks have Fox news doing the same thing albeit voluntarily.
Any uprising in Russia would surely need the support of the media - how is that ever going to happen? Anybody in a position of influence who doesnt toe the putin line and sticks their head above the parapet has it lopped off by one of putin's FSB goons.
Borotommo
Well-known member
I understand you, and recognise that problem. I can only think that the reality must sink in somehow, be that sons coming home in boxes, younger more tech-savvy Russians relaying real news and explosions happening on Russian soil.
surely there’s only so long before the penny drops and it can’t all be blamed on those nasty, nazi, Ukrainians.
Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants
Well-known member
It’s hitting home in out lying cities.
I know people in Orenberg, there’s a lot of young men conscripted and also in the armed forces. Many have been injured, some captured and mutilated by UAF and plenty killed.
There’s a few in the Navy who have been pretty unscathed so far.
The ones I know work in Kazakhstan and can see Sky, BBC, CNN, Euronews plus Russian news so they see what isn’t reported.
I know people in Orenberg, there’s a lot of young men conscripted and also in the armed forces. Many have been injured, some captured and mutilated by UAF and plenty killed.
There’s a few in the Navy who have been pretty unscathed so far.
The ones I know work in Kazakhstan and can see Sky, BBC, CNN, Euronews plus Russian news so they see what isn’t reported.
Decent_Left
Well-known member
It's funny that he is actually an amusing fella and giggles like a schoolgirl. He almost cracks in this one.
Two week old photo. New troops under her command. They look happy about it too. (I created this pic with AI to add credibility to this enormous yarn I am spinning).
The guy in thelooks how I imagined your mate to look (in my head).
Good photo that, nice to see so many smiles given whats going on around them.
Haha, the shades are all they'd have in common I think. That fella has a lot more hair.
They are the Cossacks btw.
Ingleby_Flash
Well-known member
me too, how strange.The guy in the
North Devon Red
Member
Thanks borolad - for me it adds a whole new dimension. From afar I can now relate to the people fighting on and behalf of their country against a brutal aggressor
Morning all. I have been unable to post a lot of stuff I've been sent this last few days for reasons of sensitivity/opsec.
I will summarise. Tank Girl has been made acting 2 star general (and is currently at "school"). Our man has been made Brigadier. She now outranks him, which is funny.
They have been demonstrating, through intensive wargaming in front of high ups from Ukraine, Nordics and the West (UK/US) ...that the Ukraine's slow, methodical, attritional tactics are a far better plan than the all out attacks suggested by the West's higher ups. So that' the way things will continue. The key issue was lack of air cover (F16s could have solved this) and lack of long range missiles.
Speaking of which, they were (worryingly) targeted by 2 hypersonic missiles a couple of days ago. Thankfully, between a patriot system and a bunch of CV90s, they were taken out.
Anyway, back to school.
"My colleague is having the day off, or more to the point a planned study day.
So, she started to read the spicey book
Also known as Generalstabens Handbok för Generaler i Fält 2018 - The General Staff's Handbook for Generals in the Field 2018.
It is in Swedish, so there's a lot of translating and arguing with the book going on in the middle of the field.
So, I left my colleague to it to go and prepare for my weekend, I am not back in service until 1800 on Sunday.
Devolvement
What I find so interesting is how this war is devolving backwards in time, both in regards of tactics deployed, but also in regards of equipment.
At the same time we obviously see for the first time large scale deployments of brand new tech, primarily with the Ukrainians.
We have seen trench-tactics and fortifications from WWI, and defencive tactics by Zhukov from WWII.
What we have not seen are the expected.
We do not see large scale combined arms tactics, we do not see a lot of air force, almost no tank battles, and so on.
The Russians on the other hand are pushed backwards in time as they run out of their modern stuff and their cold war legacy stuff, and more and more rely on old stuff from just after WWII.
But, I want to muse upon a detail in this flood on devolvement.
I want to muse upon the Bofors 40mm (again).
It has been so gosh darn effective in this modern warfare that most countries now are raiding their museums, and buying up collectors pieces.
In a way, we are back to WWII when every ship and theatre of operation had Bofors 40s bolted on or dragged in until the ship or place looked like a porcupine.
The original Bofors 40/60 was invented in 1934 by two elderly engineers literally working in the toolshed at home of one of them.
As WWII kicked off it was quickly noticed that it was the only autogun able to fire far enough and that had a magnetic proximity fuse, to be able to make a difference.
Back then it was aimed by two people, one aimed sideways, and one up down, with the former firing.
In this guise it was the most successful gun in history.
It remained in service well into the nineties in this form.
CV9040
In the 70s and 80s almost everyone was moving away from the Bofors 40 in favour of ever more precise and expensive air defence missiles.
After all, using a 1 million dollar missile to down a 40 million dollar airplane is a bargain.
But, in Ukraine Air Defence is used against missiles and drones, and not airplanes.
The Missile Defence Systems are just to good at taking out airplanes, so there has been a fairly limited use of those in the war, and this is why Russia never obtained Air Supremacy.
So, instead missiles and drones are used.
This is where economics get involved.
Downing a missile incoming in a city or against a high value military target is worth it, but the systems are so expensive that it is impossible to do it on a large enough scale without running out of very expensive missiles.
This is why Germany sent Gepard with its twin 35mm Oerlikon gun mount.
It had a reliable gun, and a radar good enough to take out slow drones, and slow moving missiles.
Problem quickly turned out to be the ammo access and production since the Swiss refused to sell ammo, and nobody else produced it at the time.
Later on Germany started to produce ammo, but at a rate of 80 000 a year.
Which is just pityful.
We instead pressganged the CV9040 into an air defence role, equipped them with more up to date radars, and installed automatic air defence control systems that was linked.
And the CV9040 comes with a way more powerful 70 calibre version with a redesigned larger shell and more drivecharge in a long casing.
We thought it would be useful against small quadcopter drones, FPV-drones and fixed wing drones, and somewhat able against cruise missiles and such.
After all, those are not faster than a WWII fighter airplane.
As it turned out it was the last great hope of winning this new style of air war.
It is comparatively cheap to use compared to anything else.
We had 12 million shells as the war started of the calibre 70, and since someone had forgotten to destroy them we had a further 10 million calibre 60 shells.
On top of that we have the tooling for the calibre 70, and everyone and their cat has license agreements for both calibres.
In the end the Bofors turned out to be far deadlier than anyone expected, up to and including Bofors.
With a good radar and fast actuators it can easily track and down anything within its fire range.
The Kinzhal
We have now had time to go through the data of the downing of the Kinzhal missile.
It is stated as being the best and fastest missile in production.
It is hypersonic during travel and supersonic on the down-arc, it is accurate and pretty impressive.
Still it did not have a chance against the B40/70 when fired from 42 CV9040s.
8 was parked to close to the intended hit point, so they could not train their gun high enough, so they did not fire.
On average each of them fired 100 shells.
First we thought we proved that enough fired downrange and you build a wall of splinter able of ripping anything apart.
But that was not really true.
As we analysed the radar tracking from the rather stupendous array of hightech Solid State radars of the Patriot System and the IRIS-T systems we noticed that it was killed by direct fire within the first 50 rounds to hit.
Those where fired from the 6 first systems to engage.
We can't discern if it was the first or 50th shot that killed it since so much arrived almost at the same time.
After that it was promity fuses going off as they detected the ever larger shrapnel cloud.
This means that a 14 million dollar missile was downed by 75 000 dollars worth of 40mm shells and that the following 6.2 million USD in shells was rather pointless (albeit very impressive).
Bofors will issue a software update limiting the amount to save some tosh.
I can't imagine what those two engineers would have thought if we had been able to tell them that 89 years later their invention would still be used, and being the best weapon fielded in an airwar that to them would have seemed like science fiction.
Obviously the radar controll and networking of them has made them far better and more deadly, but the gun itself is still mostly the same.
And since the CV9040 is the best tool on the battlefield, it is the gun that will win the landwar together with the 155mm WWII artillery piece.
The rest is more or less falling on the wayside.
I am incredibly impressed."
I will summarise. Tank Girl has been made acting 2 star general (and is currently at "school"). Our man has been made Brigadier. She now outranks him, which is funny.
They have been demonstrating, through intensive wargaming in front of high ups from Ukraine, Nordics and the West (UK/US) ...that the Ukraine's slow, methodical, attritional tactics are a far better plan than the all out attacks suggested by the West's higher ups. So that' the way things will continue. The key issue was lack of air cover (F16s could have solved this) and lack of long range missiles.
Speaking of which, they were (worryingly) targeted by 2 hypersonic missiles a couple of days ago. Thankfully, between a patriot system and a bunch of CV90s, they were taken out.
Anyway, back to school.
"My colleague is having the day off, or more to the point a planned study day.
So, she started to read the spicey book
Also known as Generalstabens Handbok för Generaler i Fält 2018 - The General Staff's Handbook for Generals in the Field 2018.
It is in Swedish, so there's a lot of translating and arguing with the book going on in the middle of the field.
So, I left my colleague to it to go and prepare for my weekend, I am not back in service until 1800 on Sunday.
Devolvement
What I find so interesting is how this war is devolving backwards in time, both in regards of tactics deployed, but also in regards of equipment.
At the same time we obviously see for the first time large scale deployments of brand new tech, primarily with the Ukrainians.
We have seen trench-tactics and fortifications from WWI, and defencive tactics by Zhukov from WWII.
What we have not seen are the expected.
We do not see large scale combined arms tactics, we do not see a lot of air force, almost no tank battles, and so on.
The Russians on the other hand are pushed backwards in time as they run out of their modern stuff and their cold war legacy stuff, and more and more rely on old stuff from just after WWII.
But, I want to muse upon a detail in this flood on devolvement.
I want to muse upon the Bofors 40mm (again).
It has been so gosh darn effective in this modern warfare that most countries now are raiding their museums, and buying up collectors pieces.
In a way, we are back to WWII when every ship and theatre of operation had Bofors 40s bolted on or dragged in until the ship or place looked like a porcupine.
The original Bofors 40/60 was invented in 1934 by two elderly engineers literally working in the toolshed at home of one of them.
As WWII kicked off it was quickly noticed that it was the only autogun able to fire far enough and that had a magnetic proximity fuse, to be able to make a difference.
Back then it was aimed by two people, one aimed sideways, and one up down, with the former firing.
In this guise it was the most successful gun in history.
It remained in service well into the nineties in this form.
CV9040
In the 70s and 80s almost everyone was moving away from the Bofors 40 in favour of ever more precise and expensive air defence missiles.
After all, using a 1 million dollar missile to down a 40 million dollar airplane is a bargain.
But, in Ukraine Air Defence is used against missiles and drones, and not airplanes.
The Missile Defence Systems are just to good at taking out airplanes, so there has been a fairly limited use of those in the war, and this is why Russia never obtained Air Supremacy.
So, instead missiles and drones are used.
This is where economics get involved.
Downing a missile incoming in a city or against a high value military target is worth it, but the systems are so expensive that it is impossible to do it on a large enough scale without running out of very expensive missiles.
This is why Germany sent Gepard with its twin 35mm Oerlikon gun mount.
It had a reliable gun, and a radar good enough to take out slow drones, and slow moving missiles.
Problem quickly turned out to be the ammo access and production since the Swiss refused to sell ammo, and nobody else produced it at the time.
Later on Germany started to produce ammo, but at a rate of 80 000 a year.
Which is just pityful.
We instead pressganged the CV9040 into an air defence role, equipped them with more up to date radars, and installed automatic air defence control systems that was linked.
And the CV9040 comes with a way more powerful 70 calibre version with a redesigned larger shell and more drivecharge in a long casing.
We thought it would be useful against small quadcopter drones, FPV-drones and fixed wing drones, and somewhat able against cruise missiles and such.
After all, those are not faster than a WWII fighter airplane.
As it turned out it was the last great hope of winning this new style of air war.
It is comparatively cheap to use compared to anything else.
We had 12 million shells as the war started of the calibre 70, and since someone had forgotten to destroy them we had a further 10 million calibre 60 shells.
On top of that we have the tooling for the calibre 70, and everyone and their cat has license agreements for both calibres.
In the end the Bofors turned out to be far deadlier than anyone expected, up to and including Bofors.
With a good radar and fast actuators it can easily track and down anything within its fire range.
The Kinzhal
We have now had time to go through the data of the downing of the Kinzhal missile.
It is stated as being the best and fastest missile in production.
It is hypersonic during travel and supersonic on the down-arc, it is accurate and pretty impressive.
Still it did not have a chance against the B40/70 when fired from 42 CV9040s.
8 was parked to close to the intended hit point, so they could not train their gun high enough, so they did not fire.
On average each of them fired 100 shells.
First we thought we proved that enough fired downrange and you build a wall of splinter able of ripping anything apart.
But that was not really true.
As we analysed the radar tracking from the rather stupendous array of hightech Solid State radars of the Patriot System and the IRIS-T systems we noticed that it was killed by direct fire within the first 50 rounds to hit.
Those where fired from the 6 first systems to engage.
We can't discern if it was the first or 50th shot that killed it since so much arrived almost at the same time.
After that it was promity fuses going off as they detected the ever larger shrapnel cloud.
This means that a 14 million dollar missile was downed by 75 000 dollars worth of 40mm shells and that the following 6.2 million USD in shells was rather pointless (albeit very impressive).
Bofors will issue a software update limiting the amount to save some tosh.
I can't imagine what those two engineers would have thought if we had been able to tell them that 89 years later their invention would still be used, and being the best weapon fielded in an airwar that to them would have seemed like science fiction.
Obviously the radar controll and networking of them has made them far better and more deadly, but the gun itself is still mostly the same.
And since the CV9040 is the best tool on the battlefield, it is the gun that will win the landwar together with the 155mm WWII artillery piece.
The rest is more or less falling on the wayside.
I am incredibly impressed."
NZBoro1
Well-known member
Played with the oerlikon guns for a while in the early 90s, the ones we ‘repatriated’ during the Falklands.
Really good piece of kit and excellent at knocking down planes, hence our repatriation.
www.rafregimentheritagecentre.co.uk
Really good piece of kit and excellent at knocking down planes, hence our repatriation.
OERLIKON 35MM ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUN - RAF Regiment Heritage
www.rafregimentheritagecentre.co.uk
Lefty
Well-known member
So much about this war resonates with WW2 (and WW1) rather than other more recent conflicts.