Tesla exposed

They are expensive though. If the world was serious about climate change they would be cheaper to buy than a petrol or diesel vehicle right now wouldn't they? Car manufacturers take the hit now and recoup the losses later.
 
Randy said:
They are expensive though. If the world was serious about climate change they would be cheaper to buy than a petrol or diesel vehicle right now wouldn't they? Car manufacturers take the hit now and recoup the losses later.
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No. That would mean car manufacturers going bust. EV technology is developing at a rapid pace and prices are dropping dramatically
 
BaronSmoggie said:
I get your point. My car owes me less than 10K, it costs less than 500 quid a year to insure, its taxed for 300 odd quid a year and owes me about the same per year in maintenance. I couldn't justify spending 40,50,60K on an EV for the miles I do.

Interesting on the pipeline cost, didn't realise it was that high. I do think at some point in the future because of the climate, we are going to have to say, cost be damned, else their won't be a future for us.
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Yeah, it's just not practical for you to get a new EV, it's not cost-effective, but a new ICE isn't either by the looks of it. A 40k EV like a Tesla Model 3 or VW ID4, would still be a 30k car for something similar sized that either has performance/ tech of the tesla or build of the VW, or some of the BMW's/ Audi's coming out very soon. For the miles you do, spending 30k on a car is probably daft, and anything like a comparable ICE car is going to depreciate pretty quick.
Obviously, it depends on what you earn and what you like etc, waiting a couple of years for a 2020/2021 second hand EV would make more sense for you I expect.

I've heard horror stories about EV insurance but I think those days are done, probably insurers being overly cautious or trying to take advantage of change, like they always do. Insurance on mine is like £450 I think, which is good for a bloody expensive car, it's no more than my BMW which as worth about a 1/3rd of that.

Yeah a 100mm water pipe or broadband duct installed by an approved small contractor can be done in plastic, and is probably £30-80 per metre, for long jobs. For hydrogen (I've not installed a hydrogen pipe, <0.1% of contractors have I bet), I imagine it would be same spec as an oxy/ ethylene/ fuel pipe. These tend to be steel (or extremely high spec plastic), and a much, much slower process, effectively takes about 10x longer to install, so 10x more cost, for a small contractor. So now you're on £300-800/m.
But, and it's a big but, there's no way that would be put in the hands of a small contractor, so would end up being the likes of Balfour Beatty, kier etc, and with that, their costs (and delays), so double that, and you're now on £600-£1,600 a metre. The small contractor would still end up doing it too, just as a sub-contractor, it's crazy.
Think how long broadband took to get sorted? That's a drop in the ocean compared to hydrogen, and every year it's delayed it gets harder and harder. We do come across oxy/ ethylene/ fuel pipes often when we're working, mainly installed many decades ago, but there's next to none of these types of pipe going in now, nobody can afford it.
The hydrogen has to go on trucks, there's no other plausible way to be honest, and the waste in energy of that, comparing it to already established EV's/ Solar/ Wind/ Nuclear of 10 years into the future will probably kill it off. Who would take the punt and put the infrastructure in on that, and do what Tesla did for EV, basically add the fueling before the cars? Nobody, as it would take 1,000 times the investment Tesla put in (which was massive). They only put connection points on effectively pre-established cables/ network, didn't do much cable infrastructure themselves etc. Cable ducts are cheap too.
 
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I do think the "cost" issue is being overplayed. Yes EV are slightly more expensive than ICE but not be as such as is being stated. People need to start comparing like for like. People state EV are 50K and yes some are. And they are the same level as Audi/BMW and Merc for only slightly cheaper.

Which is why I mentioned the Koreans. Their cars are very reliable. Well built and much cheaper.

The only issue I can see is high 2nd hand prices. That's simply due to lack of stock. We'll soon see a lot more second hand cars on the market. This'll drive prices down.
 
Randy said:
They are expensive though. If the world was serious about climate change they would be cheaper to buy than a petrol or diesel vehicle right now wouldn't they? Car manufacturers take the hit now and recoup the losses later.
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Forget ticket price, it's largely irrelevant, just like monthly payment is largely irrelevant, the most relevant thing is the total cost of ownership, divided by the duration of ownership. Then the milage needs to be estimated for a true calculation, as the more miles you do, the more the EV wins etc.
Depreciation, finance charges, fuel, VED, Insurance, tax benefits for staff, tax benefits for companies, maintenance etc, it all counts so has to all be factored in.
The EV loses on ticket price but wins on depreciation, fuel, VED, tax benefits for staff, tax benefits for companies, maintenance, the rest are a draw pretty much. I actually got 0% finance on my EV too, which was unreal.

A 70k EV can cost the same as a 35k BMW 3 series, over 3 years, very easily, and I know which I'd rather drive.
Most won't/ can't pay for that class of car though, so they might want a 25k new car, which is comparable to a Tesla Model 3 or ID3, for total cost of ownership.
Those who buy cars a few years old, can by an EV a few years old, maybe now, or maybe in a few years when the VW's, Audi's, BMW's trickle down.
 
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SmallTown said:
The only issue I can see is high 2nd hand prices. That's simply due to lack of stock. We'll soon see a lot more second hand cars on the market. This'll drive prices down.
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2nd hand price being high is good for the new EV buyer though, depreciation is minimal, but a lot of the EV's that came out from the big names were aimed more high end I suppose, even the high end of their typical buyers. One of the main reasons I went for mine was the depreciation forecast, along with I got 0% finance too.

When an EV of the 3 series or A3 so thing like that come out, using current tech it will be quicker change and they will have unreal resale value.
 
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SmallTown said:
No. That would mean car manufacturers going bust. EV technology is developing at a rapid pace and prices are dropping dramatically
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Obviously subsidised by green groups in government and privately.

I know they've organised a final date for the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles, is there any news on a date arranged when they won't be allowed on the roads?
 
Randy said:
Obviously subsidised by green groups in government and privately.

I know they've organised a final date for the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles, is there any news on a date arranged when they won't be allowed on the roads?
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EV are government subsidised. The give you a grant to buy the car (if it's a reasonable priced one) they give you a grant to to install a charger. They waive car tax and of course you don't pay them fuel duty.
 
SmallTown said:
Again you are looking at premium cars.
Try the hyundai Kona or the Kie e soul. You can't say "electric cars are too expensive " then only quote prices for the expensive ones. So yes, you are wrong when you say its 40-60k for an EV when it blatantly isn't true.
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Not sure why you felt the need to post that when I'd already addressed it in a former post where I said I hadn't researched the market and those three I picked were the ones I knew about. I'm not wrong about pricing, thats what they cost. And to my mind, they are comparable to the quality I have now in the BMW. But, I'm not in the market, so its largely irrelevant for me.
 
BaronSmoggie said:
Not sure why you felt the need to post that when I'd already addressed it in a former post where I said I hadn't researched the market and those three I picked were the ones I knew about. I'm not wrong about pricing, thats what they cost. And to my mind, they are comparable to the quality I have now in the BMW. But, I'm not in the market, so its largely irrelevant for me.
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Your actual quote was "it is 40-60k for an EV" that direct quote was what I was saying is wrong. Because it is.

You then claimed you weren't looking for a "premium" car. So I listed none premium ones. You now claim you are looking for a premium car. Not having a go but this is the thing I struggle with about having chats about buying an EV. People against them will say "EVs are too expensive " then I'll name some none expensive ones to which they'll say "oh yes but I want a BMW level car" so you're making a statement and then making a false comparison. Was, EV that are the same standards as a BMW are expensive. In the same way that an ICE BMW is expensive. Just be fair with your comments.
 
SmallTown said:
Your actual quote was "it is 40-60k for an EV" that direct quote was what I was saying is wrong. Because it is.

You then claimed you weren't looking for a "premium" car. So I listed none premium ones. You now claim you are looking for a premium car. Not having a go but this is the thing I struggle with about having chats about buying an EV. People against them will say "EVs are too expensive " then I'll name some none expensive ones to which they'll say "oh yes but I want a BMW level car" so you're making a statement and then making a false comparison. Was, EV that are the same standards as a BMW are expensive. In the same way that an ICE BMW is expensive. Just be fair with your comments.
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No I'm not and I've never said that, I used Premium EV cars as an example because I was comparing to the ICE car I currently own so to me it seemed a fair comparison IF I was in the market for an EV, which I am not.
 
BaronSmoggie said:
No I'm not and I've never said that, I used Premium EV cars as an example because I was comparing to the ICE car I currently own so to me it seemed a fair comparison IF I was in the market for an EV, which I am not.
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Yes that bit is fair enough. But when I asked you if you were explicitly looking at premium vehicles you said no. So I mentioned a few vehicles that were a lot cheaper than the prices you were saying. You then flipped it back and said you WERE looking at premium EVs. So you need to add the word premium to your statement that all EVs are expensive. Than I can agree. Because all premium ICE vehicles are also expensive.
 
I don't know if it's been mentioned but one thing worth noting about EV cars is that approximately 85% of the world's and our electricity is created by 'fossil fuels' this number actually increases as the demand for electricity increases.

So as more people go EV more hydro carbons are used to then fuel the electricity grid than before.

I say that as someone who will buy an EV next time more than likely, I just find it interesting.

We really should be building nuclear power plants to offset the added demand on the grid created by the electrification of everything to help during the transition to renewables.
 
Alvez_48 said:
I don't know if it's been mentioned but one thing worth noting about EV cars is that approximately 85% of the world's and our electricity is created by 'fossil fuels' this number actually increases as the demand for electricity increases.

So as more people go EV more hydro carbons are used to then fuel the electricity grid than before.

I say that as someone who will buy an EV next time more than likely, I just find it interesting.

We really should be building nuclear power plants to offset the added demand on the grid created by the electrification of everything to help during the transition to renewables.
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Or speed up the transition to renewable energy. A couple of countries are already 100% renewable so its an achievable objective
 
SmallTown said:
I don't have time to read the video yet. Can you please precis why not? I'd like to follow nations like Norway
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Nothing I could write in a short cliff notes would be as effective as taking 8 minutes to watch the video.

I say 8 minutes because the last couple are an advert for skillshare an education resource.
 
Alvez_48 said:
I don't know if it's been mentioned but one thing worth noting about EV cars is that approximately 85% of the world's and our electricity is created by 'fossil fuels' this number actually increases as the demand for electricity increases.
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It's gone from a niche 4% to over 40% in just 10 years. As technology improves, prices reduce, and more homes and businesses have it are built around green energy, then the numbers will continue upwards. We all have to look at reducing our footprint though, no good if % rises but total energy consumption rises alongside it.

If we all end up with electric cars, then I guess we offset the cost of extracting, refining, transporting and burning fossil fuels. If we have more people with solar energy to feed into their cars, then the sums will add up. Solar for me next, but this is an area the government should be doing more to help with. Prices are still high, 8 year minimum to recoup solar installation, 12 years with battery installation. Solar costs should be vat free, get the majority of the country on solar asap.

I agree completely that nuclear is in the medium term required to fulfill the short fall and support overnight energy needs
 
Alvez_48 said:
Nothing I could write in a short cliff notes would be as effective as taking 8 minutes to watch the video.

I say 8 minutes because the last couple are an advert for skillshare an education resource.
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Finally had the time. Good point. Nuclear it is
 
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